Obamacare cost to middle class

[JsJs24]

TweetCheck out this article on the costs this bill will have on the middle class. Families earning combined incomes of "$88,200 that don't have coverage from their employer will be hit with a mandatory fee of about $15,000 according to the Congressional Budget Office's analysis of the final Senate Obamacare bill."

https://www.infowars.com/obamacare-to...-15000-a-year/

Some things to think about that I don't believe most people consider. What will people do in order to pay their health care coverage? The money has to come from somewhere. Here is what will happen in my honest opionion: Families will decrease the amount they contribute to their retirement account, and in many cases will stop contributing to it altogether. Thus, when they retire they will have health care but nowhere to live and no money to live on. People will default on their credit cards and more detrimental, their auto loans and home loans. This will lead to a major recession and bailout of more banks and auto manufacturers. This is all planned I believe in order to give the governmnet greater control of the private sector and to own more companies. The middle class will be destroyed and we will live in a country with 2 classes, rich and poor. This is Marxism at its greatest. This will be the end to living the so called American Dream. Anyone who doesn't believe this will happen I would love to hear an educated rebuttal as to how it won't happen. If you have to pay the mandatory 8% of your income to health insurance, where will you take that money from. Unless you have the ability to save an extra 8% each paycheck, you will be in trouble and have to default on other promises. If you can afford it then it will merely impact your savings, which is exactly what this administration wants. They follow the Keynesian approach to Economics, which asserts that savings are bad and lead to recessions. Conversely, Austrians and Friedman economics supporters believe the inverse, that without savings the country is doomed to go into recessions and not come out for a longer period of time.

People need to study the history of Progressives, and this President and Hillary Clinton admit to being Progressives. The Progressive agenda has and always will be to live in a Socialist Utopia, where there are no wage differentials and everyone is in the same class with exception to the rich elitists. But Americans are being taken as fools and believe that everything is being done for the greater good, even though it means taking your liberties. Wake up sheep, the wolves are on the prowl and just got a big meal with this health care bill. One sixth of the U.S. economy will now be controlled by the federal government. They can't even run Amtrak and yet we seem to think they can run health care. Look at the post office, medicare, social security, and every other government run program and tell me how well it works. This is a sad day for America and another step toward socialism for the elite.

[FUZO]

TweetALL OF THE TRUTH WILL BE COMING OUT AND THATS WHY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL NOT WANT THIS AND IT WONT VER TAKE PLACE.4 YEARS IS A LONG TIME. PLUS LETS NOT FORGET THAT THE HOUE DOESNT WANT SOME THINGS IN THIS BILL THAT THE SENATE HAS AND WILL WALK OUT

[JsJs24]

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ALL OF THE TRUTH WILL BE COMING OUT AND THATS WHY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL NOT WANT THIS AND IT WONT VER TAKE PLACE.4 YEARS IS A LONG TIME. PLUS LETS NOT FORGET THAT THE HOUE DOESNT WANT SOME THINGS IN THIS BILL THAT THE SENATE HAS AND WILL WALK OUT

I hope so Fuzo, guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm sorry I'm not as optimistic about it as you are. I just don't have any confidence in politicians and view them as people with no souls that care nothing about the citizens and our great nation. A true democracy is what they have turned our Country's government into, and one with no bounds. The republic and Constitution are failing us. People need to wake up and realize what is happening and take back our government. It is supposed to be a government for the people, and yet they continue to ignore that.

[trip]

TweetWell, here's my rebuttal, a piece of crappy journalism, apparently they have little knowledge of math, reality, and napkins.

a. a combined income of 88k, 90% of those folks already have coverage would be my guess, very few jobs over 40k do not have it

b. costs quoted are not real, it's like saying a car costs 25k, is that true.........an individual can buy a standard package of health care for about 3k a year, 10k for a family in a package, if you're in you're twenties or 30's 2k

c. if employers give up there health care coverage, which my guess averages 5-7k per employee for them on there bottom line costs cause they rarely pay tax on that outlay, a worker would demand to be compensated in pay to buy it, that is how the market works, would they get the short end of the stick, yeah, but it would get transferred

d. most business's offer health care not cause they want to, but because 40 years ago it was cheap and a way to keep good people, it eventually became common place by all........now, most coroporations hate it because it is a pain in the ass and they don't want the hassle, yet, it has become a begrudging part od doing business,

you gotta realize how much of this stuff started, and how incremental teeny tiny moves over decades end up being a pain in the ass, ie, the law of large numbers

40 years ago demographically we were young and healthy and the country wealthy, and actual costs were cheap, there were no mri's, or 2k a month drug bills, over time companies gladly paid 2-3% increases for another perk, it was fine for twenty years until late 80's early 90's both drugs and technologies brought in a completely different system in capabilities and abilities, at that time insurance companies ate the bullet cause they could not raise rates in line with the new costs, it took them ten years to catch up, and in the late 90's, 98-99 they crossed the magino line of 10% annual increases, and then the problems began..........

as i've said, a shift in balance over time will happen incrementally will it work out, i don't know, my best guess is it will be okay

[FUZO]

TweetThis health care bill will never get operational. This scum bag president is so unConstitutional its pathetic. I would bet he' s a scum bag working for the other side

[JsJs24]

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Well, here's my rebuttal, a piece of crappy journalism, apparently they have little knowledge of math, reality, and napkins.

Okay Trip I will accept that the article I linked was from a source that should be questioned. I only used it because it had numbers from the Congressional Budget Office. Never again will I use anything from Info-Wars as I don't visit the site very often myself, and find them to be extremely anti-Obama, but every once in a while they have a good article and I find it because I have a site I go to that collects the best fact based news available for the most part. Here is a link from a site that I go to, mises.org, and it is written by a chief operating officer of a hospital system. Everyone that writes on the Ludwig von Mises Institute is a respected source.

https://mises.org/daily/3543

In addition, I have read close to 100 pages of the actual health care bill and can tell you that 8% is the true number that people will be required to pay into insurance. Yes, most people making decent incomes will insurance provided by their employers, for now anyway. But what about those who make up the majority of jobs in our country, the small businesses. How many of those do not provide insurance, even for themselves? They will have to pay the mandatory 8% of their income. But the insurance companies are going to go out of business eventually because they are going to be forced to provide coverage based off of the government's guidelines. I will try to find another article from an economist at Mises.org discussing how this will fore insurance companies out of business. The topic is much more complex than most understand. Remember, this president's goal is to have a single payer plan. He has said that before taking office several years ago on video to an audience of supporters of a single payer system. With that in mind, you can bet that the bill will be catastrophic to insurance companies. Government involvement is what has made the health care industry so expensive for the most part, and more of it will surely not help.

It seems you and I can get nowhere with our discussions. You have your opinions and I have mine. You trust the government more than I do, which does not take much because I do not trust them at all. I believe they are crooks who desire unlimited power.

[JsJs24]

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Well, here's my rebuttal, a piece of crappy journalism, apparently they have little knowledge of math, reality, and napkins.

Trip, here is a good article for you to read about the Health Care bill and the Progressive agenda.

https://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=468

[trip]

Tweetlol, i read alot of sites, js, i don't care what there bias is, i consume all knowledge

i'll check out the latest one

i'm just not in the camp the insurance companies will go bust, most of the cost happens late in life when folks are in medicare, i'm also not that much of fear into the future prediction stuff, things tend to go too extremes, in the early 2000's they started adding on dental and eyesight stuff which was never there before, things will roll back to keep profits up

we lead in medical advances because there is a profit incentive, no one wants to lose that, so the system will stay the same govt rules and support and profit companies providing it

[trip]

Tweetanother what i'd consider bad article

experts, lol, here's the problem that we factual face, all companies, all people, let's say you get diagnosed with "X", in jersey it costs you 50k, new york 60k, iowa 28k, mnnesota 31K, wyoming 22k

and walla the results for X is all the same no one no better no worse in all states combined

the difference is systems have been set up in certain states that go crazy testing, re-testing, trying this trying that, so costs are out of control

it's just plane nuttye, so the fact is is there are pockets of best practices everywhere and they are trying to get to the best efficeinces, that is business 101, another problem with the above scenario is waiste can flourish in those systems because your'e average worker can't compare costs, so a little here and there can fall thru the cracks

legislative vs executive, hate too say it but that's the cheney agenga, he who is at the top is king, be damned the rest

my basic believe is it is not so much the laws or how they approach the problems, but who games it how with loopholes, loopholes, loopholes

from what i can gather loopholes are timeless, and have always been around, which is a direct conflict with all are equal..............people accept you got money you can get better house, car, food, clothes, advice.............what pisses them off is in the eye of the government you can buy em off, that's how i see the next 20 years going, hopefully the quashing of this, i don't think anyone likes this or believes in it, yet, folks get into positions of power and everyone else is doing it, it is hard not too jump the fence

i don't know if theres a soluton overall, yet, you can bet the bigger the market the more loopholes, or the bigger the profit margin, the more folks do too protect it

like i seriously doubut anyone is trying to game the drivers licsence system, for some reason we all agree that's a pretty good one and the right way too do it overall

[JsJs24]

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another what i'd consider bad article

experts, lol, here's the problem that we factual face, all companies, all people, let's say you get diagnosed with "X", in jersey it costs you 50k, new york 60k, iowa 28k, mnnesota 31K, wyoming 22k

Trip, there is no use arguing with you. I always welcome a good debate but if you can't even admit that the source from Mises.org is an expert on the matter, whether you agree or not, then there is no longer any use discussing it.

[trip]

TweetI have no idea what the writers background is at Misses.org

Seeing as how I've edited probably close too 100,000 pages of writing, I can tell pretty much in the first few paragraghs what the point is, my point is that everyone knows health care companies, insurers, the government cause they pay threw medicare to private practitioners and hospitals, the same ailment with same outcomes has a 2.5 standard deviation in price.............that is a problem because when you put inflation on the highest things get whacked.

FWIW, experts don't decide, another fact, you're doctor "Recommends", ultimately you end up signing papers that you decide.

So, in fact, his first attempt at his point is moot.

[JsJs24]

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I have no idea what the writers background is at Misses.org

Seeing as how I've edited probably close too 100,000 pages of writing, I can tell pretty much in the first few paragraghs what the point is, my point is that everyone knows health care companies, insurers, the government cause they pay threw medicare to private practitioners and hospitals, the same ailment with same outcomes has a 2.5 standard deviation in price.............that is a problem because when you put inflation on the highest things get whacked.

FWIW, experts don't decide, another fact, you're doctor "Recommends", ultimately you end up signing papers that you decide.

So, in fact, his first attempt at his point is moot.

So you are basically saying that the Ludwig von Mises Institute, which is the largest school for Austrian Economics in the world and has its main campus at Auburn, does not source check their authors before publishing it on their website.

Like I said, its no use.

[JsJs24]

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I have no idea what the writers background is at Misses.org


FWIW, experts don't decide, another fact, you're doctor "Recommends", ultimately you end up signing papers that you decide.

I never claimed exerts decide, the government does in this case and we know there are no experts in that business. I was merely suggesting you hear the man's point of view considering he is COO of a hospital and thus understands how the government run health care will affect him. There are many different sources to read regarding the matter, and then you can decide what you believe will happen. Judging from everything I've read and by applying my own thoughts on the matter, I conclude the bill will be disastrous and that is why we haven't gone that route in the past.

If you agree with the health care bill then you need to realize that you are not a libertarian. Government intervention is government intervention, period. Their interaction with the free market must be kept minimal, or a domino effect will erupt through our market.

The strangest thing of all Trip, is that I am arguing with a so-called libertarian on an issue that involves an enormous government intrusion.

[FUZO]

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is that I am arguing with a so-called libertarian

could of fooled me

[trip]

TweetI read the mans point, you asked for my opinion on the whole thing I gave my BEST GUESS, based on how I see it.

I've sat in meetings with several coo's of hospitals. Hospitals now fall into two categories. Corporate owned for profit, or regionally owned which started out 50 years ago as non-profit, which are now profit and over the last ten years have bought one another out, consolidated into systems too focus on core expertise or a geographic area.
Thus, they are followers, the agenda for direction and what they do come from boards, or a ceo that has been given an agenda too complete. Thus, COO's get numbers jammed down there throat alot that don't make accounting sense yet they gotta do it.

We have not gone the route in the past? Factually, we did in 1965 with medicare, and then later medicaid.

We have a for profit system versus the rest of the worlds government run due to the fact WWII left other countries in total disarray and business gave it to the government cause they could not do it. Thus, this path was chosen in 1945, 65 years ago.

We're argueing? Nah, not how I see it, you're telling me why I'm wrong, criticizing my opinion, which you asked for, and I'm giving information on why my opinion is such.
I'm just answering questions.

Libertarain, probably been one longer than you guys have been alive.