Closer than ever...

[horsepwr]

Tweetto government healthcare.
These sneaky criminals sneak around while no-one's paying attention. The night before Christams, just like the fukin Grinch, these fukin radical leftist push a government healthcare bill closer to being a new law. A new "right. A new America. Closer to making obama's presidency a "legacy". Closer to turning America, once again, further from it's original state of freedom.

Thanks. Fukers.

I have a person that's very dear to me, that is suffering from a serious health condition. Thank the present American healthcare system, she has been able to get top notch doctors, extremely speedy appointments and testing. I'm talking same day lab work with results to us at 8am the next moring. Then, same day MRI with results, again, first thing in the morning. An appointment that took 1 week, in a doctor's office that has a 60-90day first time patient wait. We have to have more testing and a folllow up appointment in 2wks for final, 100% sure results.
I give all credit to our 2nd-to-none healthcare system. If this government bs becomes reality. The scenario I've listed will no longer be reality. My loved one would have suffered for...however long the usual wait is to get into specialist doctors such as neurologist.

Great job Reid and Pelosi. Fuk You! excuse my french emotion.

[FUZO]

TweetIts going to mean nothing . It wont ever go into affect and the dems just cut there throats politicly and wont be holding there jobs any longer

[Waterboy]

TweetFUZO is right. The bill, if passed fully, will not go into law untill 2013.
The bill now has to go to committee to be reconciled with the house version. There are to many differences to be worked out.
Some Senators and Congressmen say if parts are changed, they will not support it.
Let up pray that it becomes a stalemate and it never comes to be signed into law.

[trip]

Tweetwell, fwiw, here's what i think has transpired

First Off: It might actually work.

For the last two months I've been as mad as all you, so I do what I do massive research and try and understand both sides.

Too Understand, why 30 or so other industrialized nations have national health care and we don't goes back to WW-II. All other countries were kaput and there business leaders cut a deal with the government, you focus on health care we will do profits. We did not have too change cause we were rich and we did not.

1965 medicare comes into existence, a nothing program, that right now for all intents an purposes is national healthcare for the elederly, paid for by them thru yearly taxes

In that system the government does the collecting and paying and for profit companies do the work. Now, we got dozens of these types of systems, manufacturing of weapons is similar. These business are lucrative because they have constant demand and cost controls. Like any business they go up and down yet in the long run they do well.

IMHO, based on the research what will happen is this:

A. all healthcare will always be provided by for profit, always
B. system will not change such that we will notice it, except in the news and such
C. more folks will be covered, eventually, say ten years from now everyone will have something
D. over time, more of what has been happening for 15 years will continue, the average american will pay a bit more and get less, like deductable will be higher, you won't have as much cadillac coverage for the average worker, this has been going on for awhile and will continue
E. the big problem right now and will be for awhile is if you don't have coverage you don't have it cause you can't afford it, products will be devised to get them in the system

example, me, i don't have coverage and will avert the system, coverage would cost me
3k, the penalty is 750, if i get caught, i don't have coverage because statistically at my age if nothing serious hasn't happened now, and i don't have a family history of early cancer actuarial tables say I should be healthy until 70, now i eat right work out, all the good stuff, so at 45 i decided okay, 20 years, let's say avg. 4k a year, 80k i'll layout in coverage until i'm eleigible for what i pay into, now, if i break a leg and it costs me 10k i'll eat it, if i get cancer or something serious, well, they don't say it, yet, you're really screwed even with coverage, yes, you got 2-5 million cap, yet, anyone in business says you go over 250k and you're essentially the walking dead

now, i could afford, others cannot

F. my guess is eventually lower income will end up getting catstrophic health care, which imho is what we all should have, just like car insurance, it insures the car, not maintenance and check up, lot's of costs are high cause when you don't have too pay the supply demand curve is warped


G. as much as they all fight about it, imho, we do lead in patent, drugs, medical device discoveries, and most innovative procedures, and creation in the field, they don't want to lose it, yet, eventually everyone will end up medicare eligible, and this is the best to get those folks who eventually get it healthier

i know i know, all the pro's and cons

i post this cause imho i waisted six months of emotional energy in something on something that was pretty much a given, and in the end is actually, the best for right now, not perfect, not good, yet, the best for all concerned

later

[JsJs24]

Tweet

Its going to mean nothing . It wont ever go into affect and the dems just cut there throats politicly and wont be holding there jobs any longer

It think you are mistaken here Fuzo. It will go into effect and it will be almost impossible to reverse it.

[JsJs24]

Tweet

well, fwiw, here's what i think has transpired

First Off: It might actually work.

Trip, you need to do some more research and learn your economics. I can't believe you think this would work. Are you well traveled? Have you been to England? Do you know people from there? Because I can answer all of the following with YES, and I can tell you that there health care is horrible. Let's say you have a drinking problem and your liver fails, even though you may have the money to afford it you are not allowed a new liver because you ruined the other one. Let's say you need an MRI for a serious neurological problem, prepare to wait a few months and maybe, if the bureaucrats deem it necessary you may get surgery.

Screw the poor all right, that's what I am saying. Get off your asses and work. I have been in the poor house before and had nowhere to go, family kicked me out, no car, no job, and I went out and did something about it. I joined the military, I went to college while in, I got other certifications for my career and now I am doing good. I am sick and tired of god damn liberals telling us to feel sorry for the poor. Hey, we all have the same options in life for the most part. I wasn't born to money and I found a way to do well. My brother found a way to do well and became a Professor. My sisters, well one of them screwed up and got into drugs and now she lives a crappy life.

Poor people get off your rear and find a job and buy your own insurance because I sure as hell don't want to give up some of mine to pay for yours.

Makes me SICK!!!

[horsepwr]

TweetHalf the sorry fukers don't deserve shyt. Here's proof. If you gave half the "poor people that are having a hard time" a check for health coverage, but it's just written out to them. Watch and see if they'd cover themselves and family.
That's what makes them sorry fukers that do not deserve coverage off the back of responsible America.

The big, huge other reason this whole healthcare bill is stupid, redundant shyt is that nobody gets turned down for healthcare if needed. It's the law! Our tax dollars already go for those that aren't covered.

If you don't think this will change America for the worse. Make us poorer. Make families that can pay their bills, have to dramatically scale down to afford the cost, and put people in need of immediate care on a waiting list, then you are not thinking long term or logically.
I don't know what I would have done if my loved one did not receive immediate care and medication within a week. This person was suffering. I don't use words like "suffer, and horrible" unless I mean them. This was suffering. bad.

[trip]

TweetThis is my last post on the subject.

A. if you are sick by law if you walk into an emergency room they have too take you, that law has been around for how long, longer than as old as most of you are, so we pay anyway, that's a fact

B. every system will have flaws, there are no perfect ones, thus, i think in the end it might work out well


js, what you have intrinisically is intelligence, thus, you prosper, best guess is your sister does also but doesn't

readers are leaders, and you continue to this day too self educate, which puts you in the 3% of all people in the world, and you will thus continue to propsper

no one wants to say it yet in society what do you do if your best is being a dish washer or maid, or any other menial job, wether one believes it or not, that is the task at hand, and is always the task at hand for societies and government, what do you do with you're hard working poor

C. like i said, not much will change, with a profit motive you get better effciencies, that is a fact, they will still get stuff sooner than later, a better system is car insurance types of stuff, we don't have it, don't have that system, it is what it is

i'm pretty much made up my mind on it, toodles

ps-still working on the fed stuff

[JsJs24]

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This is my last post on the subject.

Trip I will respect your exercise of your 1st amendment right, but I also disagree.

The point I have been trying to make is that once the government gets involved, things will only get worse by becoming more bureaucratic. It starts with a bill and then that bill will grow and grow until eventually it looks nothing like how it started. Just look at every government program and you can see how large they have grown and how much debt they have incurred. People are not thinking enough about the financial side of this bill. We are not made of money and taxes can only go so far. When a recession hits such as now, people lose jobs and can no longer pay taxes, thus causing the revenue of the government to decrease significantly. At the rate we are going our country will go bankrupt in the not too distant future and as a result will have to hyper inflate our currency to pay our debts and then cancel the currency the same as Germany did and go on a new one. In this case, it will be a global currency. Once that happens, we are no longer a super power because our fate will depend on other countries helping us financially. Remember Russia and the Cold War, how we bankrupted them. Well, whose to say we're not in a Cold War now with perhaps China, and nobody has told us. They are owning more and more of our debt. Right now to the tune of 1 trillion dollars. What if they lose faith in our financial future and demand we pay up? What would that do to our economy? See, people don't think about the financial side of things. They can't understand basic economics and realize that the government does not generate wealth, it can only tax others wealth (theft in my book). But for now everybody thinks there is no problem with the government providing health care and forcing everyone to buy it or face jail time. That is against our liberty and should be shut down by the Supreme Court, but our republic is gone and we live in a democracy, which is results in the incremental infringement of our liberties. It is a slow but gradual process.

[Doink the clown]

TweetI watched these dorks vote on this at 6 this morning, i wanted to throw up.

[trip]

Tweet

Trip I will respect your exercise of your 1st amendment right, but I also disagree.

The point I have been trying to make is that once the government gets involved, things will only get worse by becoming more bureaucratic. It starts with a bill and then that bill will grow and grow until eventually it looks nothing like how it started. Just look at every government program and you can see how large they have grown and how much debt they have incurred. People are not thinking enough about the financial side of this bill. We are not made of money and taxes can only go so far. When a recession hits such as now, people lose jobs and can no longer pay taxes, thus causing the revenue of the government to decrease significantly. At the rate we are going our country will go bankrupt in the not too distant future and as a result will have to hyper inflate our currency to pay our debts and then cancel the currency the same as Germany did and go on a new one. In this case, it will be a global currency. Once that happens, we are no longer a super power because our fate will depend on other countries helping us financially. Remember Russia and the Cold War, how we bankrupted them. Well, whose to say we're not in a Cold War now with perhaps China, and nobody has told us. They are owning more and more of our debt. Right now to the tune of 1 trillion dollars. What if they lose faith in our financial future and demand we pay up? What would that do to our economy? See, people don't think about the financial side of things. They can't understand basic economics and realize that the government does not generate wealth, it can only tax others wealth (theft in my book). But for now everybody thinks there is no problem with the government providing health care and forcing everyone to buy it or face jail time. That is against our liberty and should be shut down by the Supreme Court, but our republic is gone and we live in a democracy, which is results in the incremental infringement of our liberties. It is a slow but gradual process.

js, you need to understand I am in agreement with you on all of your points, i see it the same way and wish it were different and desire it to be different

I am just in a different camp on outcome and the pace.

Studying the rise and fall of different empires in the last 2000 years, imho, there are inherent correlations as to why those who rose did and others never even were contenders. And there are distinct patterns in declines and rotation too new powers.

Now when you add in the mix of generational physcology and demographics you can get a feeling or understanding of some best guesses for the future.

Nations do in fact have inherent competitive economic advantages. The united states and russia are the only two nations who could survive 100% independent of all others if world trade were shut down. I would even put the united states ahead of russia because we are isolated by oceans and the mississipi river provides a hidden advantage of connecting important farmlands and commodities directly to the other costs, ie, transportation costs.

Most empires failed due to the fact they had economic or geographic flaws.
Although it's pretty much true every empire did everything they could to hold power until they ran out of money, ie, the rich folks were losing money trying to support the status quo verses making it.

My best guess is that we muddle along and in 2030 we get our first libertarian president because the young people who are 18-28 will be in positions of power where they can persuade, let's face it ron paul would not have made as far as he did without college kids, these kids point of view on right and wrong will not change, what will change is the economic landscape.

With approximately 6.5 billion people, 4 billion of them capitalists, and 1 billion of them living in emerged economies with a high standard of living, you have demographics that favor the emerging markets, they will and have been trading cheap labor, there economic advantage to increase wealth, they want schools, roads, hospitals, electricity, better homes, they will put pressure on commodities, 3 billion are in the process of doing what 1 billion have done.

So, on par I see our standard of living as a whole we have reached a present day maximum, and others are now growing.

humanity can be described in one word, progress, i don't see that as being repealed as of yet

And so it goes, a friend of mind had a good guote this year, "Has the world always been this ****ed up, or am I just beginning too realize it."

I've done alot of thinking on that in the last 4 months, I think it kind of has always been, and in certain ways my own mindset was pollyannish, not due to lack of understanding but focus. In my younger days focus was money, fun, knowledge.

Over the last decade it has been knowledge, knowledge, money.

Everyone has a different past and a different future.

For me, imho, my journey of self-education, things no one teaches in school or talks about is pretty much done.

My own future is thus, fun, money, knowledge........

A little bit of piece of mind I find, only by having some faith in where I stand and why, and a could guess on others.

hoped that helped

[Dzone]

TweetCall this bill "Pull The Plug On Grandma" law.

[JsJs24]

Tweet

js, you need to understand I am in agreement with you on all of your points, i see it the same way and wish it were different and desire it to be different

hoped that helped

Trip,

I see what you're saying but again, I disagree. Evidently we both study history and politics to a broader extent than most. However, I hold economics and philosophy to be of greater significance in determining the future of our liberty. The founding fathers had a very clear understanding of how large government could grow and what that would mean to our freedom. It is worth studying the federalist papers. All you have to do is realize the difference of a democracy and a republic and understand that we are operating as a democracy with minimum regard to the Constitution. You should be aware that government knows no bounds and will grow and grow until the people live under totalitarianism. Each time legislature is passed we lose an equal amount of liberty, and legislature is passed infinitely, which means liberty will retract infinitely.

[trip]

TweetAgree on the econmoics

Philosophy is tough one, it takes generations to integrate, and can change quickly. Like for 200 years it was religion, last ten years certain folks are not religious, they are spiritual................lol, now here's a good discussion, explain that one, lol

Like you're favorite, lol, the fed and fiat money, in back rooms with stinky cegars the powers that be nod too one another and say, yes yes yes it is in essence a religion, a strong impenatrable believe system..........that works until it doesn't (which is the key part)

IMHO, physcology trumps alot of it in the end, i guess in my life time a few hundred thousand laws have been passed and i feel no different, i still feel eminiently free, even more so with time and age and wisdom, so, and the young, most are focused on other things

It will all end up being like "The Wizard of Oz", in the end dorothy discovers the man behind the curtain is just a man, not good or bad or ill-willed, just a man, infallible like all, ans she discovers there is no place like home, so the writers of the constitution have set in writing home base, one day it will become obvious to all, like wtf were we thinking, that will only happen when things are FORCED TO CHANGE, which history shows how most things work, change happens when pain is unbearable and folks are forced too change, like the surge working, the surge co-incided withe mass physcology of the iraqi's they had reached the point of maximum hate, they hated dying and living in chaos, they finally accepted the reality the insurgents didn't care about them, just more chaos and dying to disrupt america, whereas, they also realized as much as what we did invading was stupid at least we were factually trying to fix the mess and get out and leave them better off, so what did the folks do, ratted out insurgents, and things have improved immensely, thus, why i always say, hate motivates, they hated dying, they changed, now they dont die, and things are improving

[FUZO]

TweetTo bad the puzzy behind the curtian now is screwing everything up badly it it shows and theres facts behind thsat to prove that.I hope your not using the surge and our economy to compare things on how things work.Trip are you saying that this new health care bill your in favor of