usnic acid

[SeaHawk]

TweetIs usnic acid legal if so where can i get some, if it is not then dont respond i am "not asking for illegal sources"

thanks

[YellowJacket]

TweetEven cheaper Usnic Acid at www.anabolicminds.com/forum and find the price list i the members only section

[YellowJacket]

TweetJust go type your name in and a made up password and when it asks "did you lose your password?" Click the link, type in your e-mail addy and it will mail you a new one!

[YellowJacket]

TweetHa, I'll talk to Chemo and let you know.....

[SeaHawk]

Tweethmmm i did some research on the stuff, i guesse its pretty bad almost like dnp f*ck that, i will stick to cardio and eating right, does anyone disagree and feels that it is not that unhealthy?

[YellowJacket]

TweetWhat we know about usnic acid:

From Whosyourdaddy02 at AnabolicMinds.com

Since the rise of usnic acid as a fat loss supplement, many disputes have taken place as to the safety of this product. In fact, it seems the entire elite fitness board and others have labeled usnic acid as more dangerous than DNP. Because of this, I am writing this article in an attempt to shed some light on the factual information we currently have at the moment. First I would like to address the two main studies which have been used as evidence to support that usnic acid is dangerous.


------------------------------------------------
Study 1:

J Ethnopharmacol 1991 Jul;33(3):217-20 Related Articles, Books,

Mitodepressive, clastogenic and biochemical effects of (+)-usnic acid in mice.

al-Bekairi AM, Qureshi S, Chaudhry MA, Krishna DR, Shah AH.

Experimental Animal Care Centre, College of Pharmacy, King Saud University, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

Mice were treated orally with aqueous suspensions of (+)-usnic acid in a single dose of either 100 or 200 mg/kg. The effects on femur cells and proteins and on nucleic acids of liver cells were studied 24-72 h after treatment. (+)-Usnic acid was found to affect the proliferation of polychromatic erythrocytes possibly by interference with RNA biosynthesis. The slight increase in the micronucleated polychromatic erythrocytes without affecting DNA synthesis suggests an effect of usnic acid on spindle apparatus.
----------------------------------------

This study has caused a lot of debate as far as the extent to which usnic acid is cancerous. In reality, it seems that most people do not understand the results of this study and are blowing the slight clastogenic effects out of proportion.

That article is simply a report of the results of a standard Mouse Micronucleus test. It demonstrates some (slight) degree of clastogenic (chromosome-breaking) activity in laboratory animals. While clastogenicity was demonstrated by the increase in micronucleated (immature) red blood cells in the one mouse micronucleus test to which he referred, UA does not cause point mutations, as shown by the negative Ames test (Ames test screens for point mutations, micronucleus test screens for clastogenicity). Neither test comes close to proving cancer-causing ability, and neither has a THING to do with liver toxicity.

Of the two studies, this is the only one that actual appears to have relevance on the surface. Hopefully based on the above explanation, one will realize that this study is no basis for alarm. If one wants to make a better assessment, they could try sub chronic oral toxicity studies in rats and mice, and a chronic toxicity study in transgenic mice. They're just two of a number of standard toxicology studies that my employer performs, but they're not cheap. However, they will provide better info for carcinogenic potential as well as a good look at any target organ effects.

The second study presented has been poorly represented and explained. As stated earlier, a reputable member of the elite fitness board posted this study. At which time it became a sticky pronouncing the danger of usnic acid. No one came to the defense of usnic acid nor were many questions asked. As a result, we can speculate that the majority of people who read that posted were misinformed about the facts. As a side note, I personally tried to have a logical discussion with elite fitness moderator Mr. X about usnic acid. In an attempt to provide logical discourse, I presented the evidence as best I could. The next day, the thread was closed. In my opinion, this was rather unfortunate as I always believed the purpose of the message boards was to promote discussion. Regardless, here is the 2nd study that was presented on the leading bodybuilding boards. It was titled “Why Usnic Acid causes liver failure/cancer”


-----------------------------------
Study 2 WITH ADDITIONAL COMMENTARY BY macrophage69alpha, elite fitness moderator:

“Why usnic acid causes liver failure/cancer...

UA is generally a much weaker uncoupler than DNP.. HOWEVER THERE ARE VERY UNPLEASANT EXCEPTIONS..

This study bodes very ill for the use of usnic acid and the link to liver failure/cancer..

UA requires 1/50 the dose to cause complete halt of oxidative phoshoralation in the liver as compared to DNP...

interesting that the users of LIPO-k have liver failure.”

CITED STUDY:

1: Nat Toxins 1996;4(2):96-102 Related Articles, Links

Lichen acids as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation of mouse-liver mitochondria.

Abo-Khatwa AN, al-Robai AA, al-Jawhari DA.

Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Science, King Abdulaziz University, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

Three lichen acids-namely, (+)usnic acid, vulpinic acid, and atranorin-were isolated from three lichen species (Usnea articulata, Letharia vulpina, and Parmelia tinctorum, respectively). The effects of these lichen products on mice-liver mitochondrial oxidative functions in various respiratory states and on oxidative phosphorylation were studied polarographically in vitro. The lichen acids exhibited characteristics of the 2,4-dinitrophenol (DNP), a classical uncoupler of oxidative phosphorylation. Thus, they released respiratory control and oligomycin inhibited respiration, hindered ATP synthesis, and enhanced Mg(+2)-ATPase activity. (+)Usnic acid at a concentration of 0.75 microM inhibited ADP/O ratio by 50%, caused maximal stimulation of both state-4 respiration (100%) and ATPase activity (300%). Atranorin was the only lichen acid with no significant effect on ATPase. The uncoupling effect was dose-dependent in all cases. The minimal concentrations required to cause complete uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation were as follows: (+)usnic acid (1 microM), vulpinic acid, atranorin (5 microM) and DNP (50 microM). It was postulated that the three lichen acids induce uncoupling by acting on the inner mitochondrial membrane through their lipophilic properties and protonophoric activities


“THIS "supplement" is VERY UNSAFE


’Complete shutdown of oxidative phosphoralation causes liver failure, the inhibition even seen with lower doses causes tremendous amounts of free radical damage as well as impairing liver function which in those susceptible MAY lead to early/rapid expression of liver related cancers.’”
-------------------------------------------------------------

The study posted is valid, but is not relevant by any means. All it says is that Usnic Acid WORKS. It is indeed an uncoupler, and the study cited proves it. Uncouplers can shut down the liver completely if OVERDOSED.

The study cited looks at the concentrations of UA or DNP at the target site (liver mitochondria) which cause complete shutdown of OP. In the study cited, UA did so at 1/50th the concentration of DNP. But to correlate this to dosages taken orally, one has to consider basic issues in absorption and transport to the liver mitochondria. I doubt that DNP and UA are completely identical in such regards. So one could not simply say that you should take 1/50th as much UA as you would DNP for the same degree of biological effect, and of course you couldn't say anything about such effects in any other organ, at least not based on this study. In addition, many consumers take a usnic acid dosage well over a normal DNP dosage and liver failure has not been a concern by any means. This fact alone shows the fallacious nature of this comment.

UA does what it is claimed to do, at least in mice under the conditions of the experiment reported. As with the biological effects of a myriad of other biologically active substances, from certain vitamins to most prescription drugs, at the proper dose it can produce a desired effect and yet in excess, it can prove fatal.


Here is what we know through experience. Some users of UA/SU have reported the following:

1. Rash – Some users develop a rash on usnic acid and sodium usniate. This appears to an allergic reaction to some substance within usnic acid. What we have witnessed is that the rash is mostly present in higher dosages – usually above 750mg. In addition, the rash has subsided in all people who have reported the rash. For some it took a few days, others around 2 weeks to completely subside.

2. Heat and increased sweating – this is the most commonly reported side effect of usnic acid. The heat stops as usage stops and is simply a by-product of the way usnic acid works in your body.

3. Headaches – some people have reported headaches. This could very well be a result of the increased heat and potentially dehydration from increased sweating.

4. Vomiting – 2 or 3 people reported vomiting while taking usnic acid. This tends to be a rare occurrence as far as we know.

5. Elevated enzyme levels – A couple people checked their liver enzyme levels via a blood test and found their levels to be above normal (in one situation, quite high actually). While only a few people have checked their levels, it seems that usnic acid might indeed cause some strain on the liver. Just as 17aa orals are liver toxic and other supplements can raise blood pressure, cause prostate hypertrophy, and other sides, this might be one side effect of usnic acid use. I should point out that it is recommended that usnic acid be cycled (2 weeks at time) to give your liver sufficient recuperation time if it is indeed being strained.

6. Abdominal pain – I have only witnessed this from a few users. This tends to be rare as well.



Comments:

There needs to be an understanding that simply because a product is over the counter, does not mean that it can be abused. Usnic acid is powerful and effective, yet needs to be treated with respect, just like any other supplement you might take. For some reason, people having been making a huge fuss over usnic acid and the truth is that we have yet to see any intelligent arguments made as to why usnic acid is a horrible supplement so long as it is dosed properly. I hope that through the information presented above, one will see that usnic acid has not been shown to be any more “dangerous” than an ECA for example. The interesting thing about products containing ephedra is that according to the FDA, over 800 injuries have been reported by users and doctors to the FDA and various state medical bodies, including more than 50 deaths. Most of these cases involve the heart attacks or high blood pressure leading to bleeding in the brain or stroke.

Does this mean we should stop using ECA’s? In my opinion no. The objective here is not to present evidence against ephedra. In fact, I think it is effective and safe when used correctly. The key phrase in the previous sentence was, “when used correctly”. What I am trying to say is to take caution when using any supplement for it seems to be the trend that for any effective supplement, there will be people with adverse reactions. The same goes for prescription based drugs as well. Next time you view a commercial on TV for a prescription drug, listen to the words at the end that usually state, “side effects include: nausea, dizziness, diarrhea, nose bleed, etc.

Clearly, the side effects witnessed with usnic acid use are not beyond the normal range witnessed with many other effective supplements. In addition, much of the hype and hysteria should now be reduced based on the explanations to the misrepresented studies above. Lastly, I would like to point out that I do not claim to be a doctor, expert, or scientist. I, however, have done the research on the information available of usnic acid and these are the conclusions we can LOGICALLY make at this point in time. I think it is important for people to continue to post their experiences so that more information can be gathered on usnic acid. This information is extremely valuable for the continuation of the learning and education process regarding usnic acid.

If you are interested in using usnic acid, the following advice should help to make your cycle more successful:

1.As stated earlier, usnic acid may put strain on the liver. Using ALA will help if this is a concern to you (Vitamin C, E, and magnesium should help as well).

2.Only run a 2-week cycle. Users have reported a decrease in fat loss after week 2, and if UA does indeed put strain on the liver, it is a good idea to cycle the product.

3.Drink a bunch of water each day. This is a good recommendation no matter what your doing.



Special thanks to DaddyR for helping with much of the analysis. If you have questions, feel free to PM me at AnablicMinds.com
Thank you.

[YellowJacket]

TweetNB- PM me your new e-mail addy if you'd like.....


Seahawk- UA is certianly not for the newbie or the guy wanting to lose 5lbs to look more lean. Its a kick ass cutting supplement with the potential for sides (like anything else) its a personal choice if you want to use it or not. Theres hundreds of positive feedback on it, as well as the few negative ones.

[SeaHawk]

Tweetgood post thanks

[jack hust]

Tweetgood post yj

[okcgrl]

TweetThe above study looked at massive quantities of usnic acid brought into contact with mice liver cells which is not a good science nor even relevant to human consumption.

A more definitive study from the Univeristy of Pavia (in Italy)refutes the above cited report:

Usnic Acid

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Botanical Description: This natural bactericide, extracted from the Cetraria Islandica (Iceland Lichen or Artico) is well-advised in replacement of antibiotic medicines as it can be taken in high quantities without any acute (short-term) or chronic (long-term) toxicity or danger for health. This resulted from many exams and has

been confirmed by an examination dated 15/09/200 rendered by Messrs. Luigia Favalli, Luigi Manzo and Roberto Scelsi, all professors working at the Faculty of Pharmacy, Toxicology and Pathological Anatomy of Pavia University.

Ingredients: anthocyanosides

Action and Indiction: About analgesic and antipiretic action

As tuberculosis, tumour and HIV inhibitor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DNP study:

: J Mol Cell Cardiol 2002 May;34(5):555-69

Dinitrophenol pretreatment of rat ventricular myocytes protects against damage
by metabolic inhibition and reperfusion.

Rodrigo GC, Lawrence CL, Standen NB.

Ion Channel Group, Department of Cell Physiology and Pharmacology, University of
Leicester, PO Box 138, Leicester, LE1 9HN, UK. nbs@le.ac.uk

We have investigated the protective effects of pretreatment with the
mitochondrial uncoupler 2,4-dinitrophenol on the cellular damage induced by
metabolic inhibition (with cyanide and iodoacetic acid) and reperfusion in
freshly isolated adult rat ventricular myocytes. Damage was assessed from
changes in cell length and morphology measured using video microscopy.
Intracellular Ca(2+), mitochondrial membrane potential, and NADH were measured
using fura-2, tetramethylrhodamine ethyl ester and autofluorescence,
respectively. During metabolic inhibition myocytes developed rigor, and on
reperfusion 73.6+/-8.1% hypercontracted and 10.8+/-6.7% recovered contractile
function in response to electrical stimulation. Intracellular Ca(2+) increased
substantially, indicated by a rise in the fura-2 ratio (340/380 nm) on
reperfusion from 0.86+/-0.04 to 1.93+/-0.18. Myocytes pretreated with
substrate-free Tyrode containing 50 microm dinitrophenol showed reduced
reperfusion injury: 29.0+/-7.4% of cells hypercontracted and 65.3+/-7.3%
recovered contractile function (P<0.001 vs control). The fura-2 ratio on
reperfusion was also lower at 1.01+/-0.08. Fluorescence measurements showed that
dinitrophenol caused mitochondrial depolarisation, and decreased NADH. The
presence of the substrates glucose and pyruvate reduced these effects, and
abolished the protection against damage by metabolic inhibition and reperfusion.
However protection was unaffected by block of ATP-sensitive potassium channels.
Thus the protective effects of pretreatment with dinitrophenol may result from a
reduction in NADH in response to mitochondrial depolarisation. Copyright 2002

What this means is by depolorizing mitochondria whether with DNP or Usnic Acid, there is less avialable electrons for the formation of oxygen free radicals.

[jack]

TweetOKC, I appreciate your posting.

The whole issue of toxicity and chromosome damage as they pertain to usnic acid has no validity, especially when one reads the report that you have cited.

People that had gotten ill taking the Syntrax product were more likely to have had damaged their livers from the yohimbine and/or the interaction of the ephedra alkaloids with the carbon tetrachloride and acetaminophen (Tylenol).

Also look at what Dr. : Shoemaker had written:

"...In folklore and modern medical studies, usnic acid has been noted to be of benefit in the treatment of many diseases that are sensitive to heat.8 When usnic acid is used in large doses, many bacteria,9 fungi,10 parasites,11 viruses,12 and even cancers13 cannot tolerate the effects of their own increased heat production and are stopped in their tracks.
Uncouplers have not been found to be clastogenic.14 All studies clearly demonstrate that uncouplers are Ames test negative15 (i.e., do not cause mutations), are not teratogenic16 (do not cause birth defects), and do not effect the longevity of animals17 (animals fed uncouplers live the same duration as untreated animals, albeit with a lower body weight). Further, uncouplers have an intrinsic level of safety because excess dosages cause increased heat and act as a warning (most drugs and supplements have no overt signs of excess use until it is too late). Other published in vitro studies on esoteric actions (spindle apparatus, etc.) at ridiculously excessive doses of usnic acid18 and speculations of possible side effects have no foundation, i.e., stop taking saccharin because tonnage doses to mice cause problems or stop taking aspirin because of unfounded reports of Reye’s Syndrome, effects on kidneys, the spindle apparatus, etc. Indeed, many commonly used pharmaceuticals have horrific commercial applications, i.e., coumadin a useful blood thinner is a rat poison; nitroglycerin is used as an anti-anginal agent, yet is a commercial explosive; botulinum toxin is injected for cosmetic purposes, yet it is the most toxic substance known in chemical warfare; curare is a blow gun dart poison, yet used daily in anesthesia as a muscle relaxant, etc. Further, unlike many herbal ingredients, bioavailability and half-life studies are published on usnic acid so that optimal herbal dosing has been established.19 In reviewing a total of 258 published abstracts on lichen acids and 61 on usnic acid, usnic acid has not been reported to have any irreversible untoward side effects by any peer reviewed journal.20

Herbal xenophobia and personal attacks are often expressed by those that either have secret agendas or are totally ignorant of a new substance (a solitary posting in 1999 by Brock Strasser in a weekly online “Testosterone” publication). Simply because an herbal ingredient has other uses than weight loss does not make it dangerous or not efficacious.
In fact, if a new substance has other medically acceptable uses based on the same mechanism of action, one should have added confidence that the ingredient will do what it claims. Like all drug and herbal formulations, dosing and proper use are important for optimal results and safety, “misuse” of any supplement can have untoward effects. For Mr. Strasser to cavalierly promote ephedra products and suggest that it is safe because beta-blockers can handle the side effects of tachycardia, etc. is at best disingenuous. How do you handle a stroke from elevated blood pressure caused by ephedra? How do you handle, ventricular fibrillation, a myocardial infarction, or other potential sudden death from excessive adrenergic stimulation?
Many herbal products are touted as “thermogens” or “fat burners21.” This has no practical basis in scientific fact. The adult human body increases heat production (caloric expenditure) in one of two ways: (1) increased muscular activity (exercise) or shivering thermogenesis (involuntary muscular work, i.e., chills when we are cold); or (2) chemical or non-shivering thermogenesis.22 The amount of caloric expenditure through chemical heat production is minimal in human adults. No brown fat is found in human adults and the effects of adrenaline or ephedra like compounds are at best short lived.23 The dominant effect of ephedra-like products is suppression of appetite, which further decreases the metabolism and heat production. The only available herbal ingredient shown to increase chemical thermogenesis on a prolonged basis is usnic acid.
As a physician, I am excited at the weight loss results this new herbal supplement promises for people unable to lose weight by diet and exercise. Waiting for the uncoupling proteins that are being developed by pharmaceutical companies (that may be available only as injections of costly drugs in 10 to 15 years) is impractical.24 Usnic acid is a naturally occurring substance that has the ability to selectively cause fat loss, a feature desired by every athlete, body builder, and rational person who desires to preserve muscle while losing weight. This herbal substance has the direct ability to stimulate metabolism and heat production so that reasonable dieting and exercise can have dramatic effects. Usnic acid will be the weight loss supplement of the new millennium. "

Dr. Shoemaker is a licensed physician who worked for several years in a weight reduction clinic utilizing patent-pending thermogenic uncoupler therapy.

References:
1. https://w3.trib.com/~kombu/
2. yahoo.com
3. https://w3.trib.com/—kombu/FAQ/mailist.html
4. Heytler, P.G., Uncouplers of Oxidative Phosphorylation, Pharmacol Ther 1980; 10(3):461-71
5. Skulachev, V.P., Uncoupling: new approaches to an old problem of bioenergetics. Biochem Biophys Acta, 1998: 1363(2): 100-24
6. Diehl, A.M., Hoek, J.B., Mitochondrial Uncoupling: Role of Uncoupling Anion Carriers & Relationship to Thermogenesis & weight Control "the benefits of losing control". J Bioenerg Biomembr, 1999; 31(5) 517-25
7. Himms-Hagen, J., Cellular Thermogenesis. Annu Rev Physiol, 1976; 38(919): 315-51
8. Rodbard, D., et al., Temperature: A Critical Factor Determining Localization and Natural History of Infectious Disease, 1980, Perspectives in Biology & Medicine, Spring. 439-474.
9. Brown, M.R., et al., Inhibition and Destruction of Microorganisms by Heat, 1971, Hugo, W.B.Ed., Inhibition and Destruction of the Microbial Cell., Acad Press, New York, 1-37
10. Silva, M., Fungi and Heat Sensitivity, 1985,Trans.N.Y. Acad.Sci., 2nd series, 21:46-53
11. Junaid, A.J.N., Treatment of Cutaneous Leishmmaniasis with Heat, 1986, Int J Derm., 25:470-72
12. Carter, W. A. et al., Viral Infection & Host Defense (Fever), 1974, Science, 186:1172-1177
13. Urano, M., Tumor Response to Heat, 1988, Hyperthermia & Oncology, Vol. 1, NSP BV, 162-200.
14. Chin, C. W. et al., Mutation Research., 1978, 58:11-17
15. Garner, R.C., and Nutman, C.A., Mutation Research, 1977, 44:9-14
16. Tainter, M.L. , Proc. Soc. Exper. Biol. & Med., 1934, 1161-1162
17. Tainter, M.L., Growth, Life Span and Food Intake of Rats Throughout Life, 1937, Proc. Soc. Exper. Biol. & Med, 51-57
18. Al-Bekairi, A. M. et al., J Ethnopharmacol, 1991, 33(3):217-20
19. Venkataramana, D. et al., Pharmacokinetics of Usnic Acid in RabbitsŠ, 1993, Eur J Metab Pharmacokinet, 18(2):161-163
20. Search of entire Medline & Toxline Databases with Grateful Med, Feb., 2001
21. Examples of trademarked products such as Metabolife, Xenadrine, Stacker 4, etc.
22. Ganong, W., F., Review of Medical Physiology, 1999, pp.241
23. Ganong, W., F., Review of Medical Physiology, 1999, pp.240
24. Millennium Pharmaceuticals, Inc, Wall Street Journal, Press Releases, March 7, 1997

[okcgrl]

TweetI actually had posted the complete article on another thread on this subject.

Thanks for also sharing it.

Compared to ephedra, guarana, willow bark, etc.; usnic acid is much safer and much more effective in getting rid of excess bodyfat.

[macro]

Tweethttps://www.yourlawyer.com/resource/news/?story_id=4923

[macro]

Tweetfrom a year ago

(03-13-2002) - The FDA has recently issued a warning about a product called Lipokinetix. It was sold over the Internet and in sports nutrition stores. A local woman says she took it and believes it may have caused her liver to fail.

"I wasn't looking for some quick fix. I wasn't looking to drop 20 pounds in a week. I was actually working out. I just wanted my workouts to be maximized," explains Anita Schultz-Lum

That's when Anita started surfing the Internet and decided to buy the diet supplement Lipokinetix.

"I took two pills per meal, three times a day, before meals as directed and I felt absolutely fine... (I) didn't feel bad at all and it didn't affect my energy level at all until one day for me... and it was very dramatic and I suddenly didn't feel well," describes Anita.

A local diet doctor says the ingredients in Lipokinetix can be dangerous for some people. .

"It basically causes your body to be inefficient. If you want to liken it to a car, it's like making an eight-cylinder car run on six-cylinders. So it's using a lot more gas to go the same distance. That's great for weight loss, but the trouble is, there's all these other side effects-- the liver side effects for example," says Dr. John Gerard.

Anita says she learned first hand about those side effects. She became jaundiced and she believes something in the Lipokinetix eventually triggered her liver failure.

"There's a lot of 'who knows what happened,' but I just felt worse and worse I was in the hospital for over two weeks and I was being prepped for an organ transplant," recalls Anita. "All I could think of was my kids and that I probably wouldn't make it through to see them grow up."

The FDA says, at least seven people who took Lipokinetix have suffered severe liver problems. One woman in Oregon died.

"I would throw it out. I really would. It's just not really worth the risk," advises Dr. Gerard.

Anita recovered without a transplant, but she says the experience was enough to make her re-examine every product she takes.

"I don't know if there's a lot of good in being angry for a long time, but I think that if people learn from this, it will be a lesson that is definitely worth telling," says Anita.

Derek Cornelius, the manufacturer of Lipokinetix, maintains that every ingredient in his product has been studied and has no link to toxicity. He also says he is aware of the customers who had adverse effects. He says he feels compassion for them, but doesn't feel any responsibility for their problems at this time.

Lipokinetix is not on store shelves anymore.

Cornelius says he stopped making it because of a raw supply issue and not because he felt it was dangerous.

Lipokinetix is a supplement and is not regulated by any government standards.

However, Cornelius says he doesn't plan on manufacturing it in the near future.

[macro]

Tweetbtw- very poor analysis of that study...

the issue is tissue activity.. the fact that at 1/50 the dosage it causes complete cessation of oxidative phosphoralation.. does not means that it works.. it means that it works very well in liver tissue (for which it apparently has a high affinity).. it means that it is dangerous.

1. this product should not be, IMHO, OTC and the lack of warning to the consumer is actionable... as well as deplorable. it causes liver failure.. and the consumer should at the very least be warned of that risk..

and the number of problems and side effects in that "sales pitch" is SEVERELY underestimated..

btw- not saying that UA and SU dont work.. (they certainly dont work as well as DNP) but DNP is in fact safer-- perhaps that should give perspective... considering the manner in which it is sold have seen a # of people saying that they would never touch DNP and then taking UA.. due to misinformation by the sellers.. (it is not safe DNP.. if anything it is LESS SAFE AND LESS EFFECTIVE DNP)