• Join Us!
  • Soy Protien
  • Soy Protien
  • Soy Protien
  • Soy Protien
  • Soy Protien
  • Soy Protien
  • Join Us!

  • Get the Fitness Geared Forum App Now!
  • Soy Protien
  • Soy Protien


  • Join Us!
  • Soy Protien
  • Soy Protien
  • Soy Protien
  • Soy Protien
  • Soy Protien
  • Soy Protien
  • Join Us!
  • You have 1 new Private Message Attention Guest, if you are not a member of Fitness Geared - Body Building & Fitness Community, you have 1 new private message waiting, to view it you must fill out this form.
  • Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Wtf
  • Thanks Thanks:  0
    Likes Likes:  0
    Dislikes Dislikes:  0
    Results 1 to 11 of 11

    Thread: Soy Protien

    1. #1
      Speedracer59's Avatar
      Speedracer59 is offline FG Resident
      Points: 17,509, Level: 84
      Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 341
      Overall activity: 0%
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2002
      Location
      South
      Posts
      1,691
      Points
      17,509
      Level
      84
      Rep Power
      95

      Default Soy Protien



      • Get the Fitness Geared
        Forum App Now!
      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien

      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien
      What is the final verdict on this. I have heard good and bad.I have even heard it reduces sperm count.What do ya'll think about it.I like soy nuts should I quit eating them?
      "There is no such thing as big pussies just little dicks. If it is loose just keep packing dick to it."

    2. #2
      jack hust's Avatar
      jack hust
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       

      Default

      i use 25-50 grms ed when i cut it helps harden me up ,there are studys i read somewere that soy is like an antie wemon use it well soy isoflaven when they get menapause to help with sides

    3. #3
      massive member's Avatar
      massive member is offline Rookie Member
      Points: 14,105, Level: 77
      Level completed: 14%, Points required for next Level: 345
      Overall activity: 0%
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2002
      Location
      Jeanerette, Louisiana
      Posts
      139
      Points
      14,105
      Level
      77
      Rep Power
      87

      Default

      i'm seeing more and more info on soy for its health benefits. dont use any, myself.
      Do you know where one builds action, stamina and guts? In the gym under the iron day after day, forever without fail or excuses or grumbling, that’s where. It’s true. I read a study somewhere and that’s what it said, really.

      There’d be fewer battles, less drugs and less crime and more happy moms and dads if we all lifted weights… let’s face it. In what recent medical journal was I reading that?

      .....the basics need to be lifted high in this age of retarded new wave info. dave draper

    4. #4
      Klash's Avatar
      Klash is offline Elite FG Resident
      Points: 49,366, Level: 97
      Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 184
      Overall activity: 0%
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2003
      Location
      Fitnessgeared
      Posts
      3,721
      Points
      49,366
      Level
      97
      Rep Power
      406

      Default

      Bump'n

    5. #5
      painintheazz's Avatar
      painintheazz is offline Rookie Member
      Points: 7,085, Level: 36
      Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 365
      Overall activity: 0%
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2003
      Location
      Boston area
      Posts
      100
      Points
      7,085
      Level
      36
      Rep Power
      86

      Default

      I personally don't use it because I have read in many of places that it increases estrogen levels ( I don't need my protein giving me gyno, hahaha) I think that is where you got the lowers sperm count thing. IMO I don't use it. I don't see anything wrong with using it maybe 2 or 3 times a week though, I think the benefits of variety in the protein makeup and structure would outweight the negative effects caused by it. My .02

      Pain
      Some are blessed with good genetics, most are blessed with good dealers!!!!

    6. #6
      StoneColdNTO's Avatar
      StoneColdNTO is offline Established Member
      Points: 8,553, Level: 39
      Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 97
      Overall activity: 0%
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2002
      Location
      Canada
      Posts
      249
      Points
      8,553
      Level
      39
      Rep Power
      88

      Default

      originally posted by "gwl9dta4" at EF

      Soy protein revisited

      The (Partial) Vindication Of Soy Protein

      Readers note: this is one of my favorite articles, and in my opinion, one of my best. However, this article was turned down by several magazines. At first I could not figure out why. I have been writing articles for many magazines for years (see bio) and I know a good article when I see one..if I say so myself. Then it hit me. The article goes against what the mags think people want to hear about their protein products. Soy has been bashed for so long, and the market for other proteins like whey has becomes so big, that they didn't want any article showing soy in a positive light. Once an industry or an individual has set a position on something, they would rather ignore new evidence to the contrary then change their position. As for me, if I find new information on something that alters my position, that's fine by me. I just change it to reflect the new information, which is exactly what I had to do with my view on soy proteins. The article did finally get published in MuscleMag International. MMI might have its faults, but they are one of the most open minded and flexible magazines and didn't have any problems with publishing this article with them. Hope you all find it useful.

      Not more than a month ago, I was standing in a field of soy beans in Peoria Illinois doing a commercial for a Japanese film crew. The guy to the right of the camera was holding up my little cue card as I said "Soy products have been shown to reduce cholesterol and possibly prevent cancer, yada, yada, yada..." I found it hard to keep a straight face and say nice things about soy protein as I have always considered soy protein basically a waste of time for bodybuilders. However, this commercial was for "normal" people so I did not feel like a "sell-out" for saying positive things about soy protein. On the plane ride home, with a glass of red wine firmly in hand, I decided to take a closer look into the properties of soy proteins and see if there were not some useful applications of this protein for bodybuilders after all.

      The bodybuilding community has been pretty hard on soy protein generally relegating it to "crap" status among most bodybuilders and bodybuilding nutritionists. I will be the first to admit I have helped the negative reputation of soy among bodybuilders along by telling them how inferior it is to such proteins as whey or egg in various articles and my book. I still think soy protein is inferior to such proteins as whey and egg, but I do believe that it has some potentially useful applications if used correctly and tweaked just right. More on that later.

      The Downside of Soy

      So why does soy have such a bad reputation among bodybuilders? On the surface, it would appear that soy protein is pretty lousy stuff for most athletes. Soy protein has a low BV score of 74. What does that mean? There are several ways of assessing protein quality. You have the protein efficiency ratio (PER), the net protein utilization (NPU) and the biological value (BV). The PER is an outdated measure of protein quality and is not used much anymore by most supplement manufacturers or nutritionists "in the know" about protein quality. The NPU is a little better than the PER, but fails to take several important factors into account involved with proteins, such as absorption and digestibility, so it too is not used much either. That brings us to the BV. The BV is the most accurate indicator of biological activity of a protein and measures the actual amount of protein deposited per gram of protein absorbed. As a rule, high BV proteins are better for nitrogen retention, immunity, IGF-1 stimulation, and are superior for reducing lean tissue loss during various wasting states than their low BV counterparts. That is, as a general rule, high BV proteins are more anti-catabolic than low BV proteins. As most people already know, the highest BV protein available is whey protein with whole egg a close second (see chart), which is why bodybuilders and other athletes rely heavily on these two protein foods and tend to avoid soy and other proteins with low BV scores.

      In addition to its low BV score, soy has several other nutritional drawbacks that make bodybuilders avoid the stuff like it was fake D-bol. One reason soy is so low on the BV scale is it is lacking in the sulfur containing amino acid methionine. The sulfur containing amino acids (cysteine being the other one) are particularly important for protein synthesis/growth, proper immune system function, and the body's production of glutathione (GSH). GSH is one of the most important anti-oxidants found in the body and protects cells and serves to detoxify a variety of harmful compounds such as hydrogen peroxide, carcinogens, reactive oxygen species, and many others. In particular, GSH is also partly responsible for keeping low density lipoproteins (LDL) from oxidizing and clogging our arteries. Several studies have shown soy protein to be inferior to whey for the production of GSH and improvements in immunity. Though soy has a reputation for reducing cholesterol in man and animals, in one study rats fed soy protein that was not fortified with methionine as 13% of total calories, had an increase in cholesterol and an increase susceptibility of LDL cholesterol to peroxidation . So not only did the rats cholesterol go up, the LDL fraction oxidized easier potentially leading to clogged arteries. It is well established that an increased susceptibility of LDL to peroxidation is an essential step for the development of atherogenesis. These rats were found to have low levels of GSH and did not grow as well as another groups of rats fed casein.

      If that were not bad enough to convince you to avoid soy, it gets worse. Soy protein contains something known as "anti -nutrients" that block the digestion and absorption of many nutrients. Two of the more important anti-nutrients found in soy are Lectins and protease inhibitors. Lectins are nasty constituents of various plants and can cause all sorts of problems from interfering with the absorption of important nutrients to intestinal damage. Proteases are enzymes that assist in the digestion of proteins. Soy has several protease inhibitors that interfere with the enzyme trypsin and chymotrypsin, both of which are important for the digestion and absorption of proteins in the gastrointestinal tract. Finally, soy is rich in estrogenic compounds such as genistein and diadzein. There are over 300 plant derived phytoestrogens found that vary substantially in their physiologic effect and potency in animals and man. As any bodybuilder worth his weight belt already knows, a change in the testosterone/estrogen ratio in favor of estrogen can lead to increased bodyfat and other ill effects as it relates to the strength athletes goals.

      BV of common proteins


      Whey=104
      Whole egg=100
      Egg white=88
      Casein=77
      Soy=74
      The Upside of Soy

      "You mean there could possibly be an upside?" you are thinking. I realize the previous section does not paint a very pretty picture of soy proteins, but I did not give you the entire story. As I said, on the surface soy looks like a pretty miserable protein for the hard training bodybuilder trying to eke out some new muscle tissue and/or lose bodyfat. The problem of the anti- nutrients found in soy protein has been taken care of as the manufacturers of high quality soy protein isolates remove them or dramatically reduce their activity during processing, so this is not a big point of concern anymore. Also, the addition of methionine to soy isolates greatly improves its BV and nutritional value, though it still does not reach the BV of whole egg or a good whey protein for that matter. Rats fed soy protein enriched with methionine grew at a similar rate as those fed casein.

      As for the estrogenic compounds found in soy, that's a bit more complicated. For years, soy protein has been found to reduce cholesterol in a wide range of animalsspecies and man. One recent study found that when they separated the estrogenic compounds from soy, it failed to have the usual cholesterol lowering effects. This does not come as a big surprise as the cholesterol lowering protective effects of estrogen are well known. However, soy protein appears to have several mechanisms by which it lowers cholesterol (i.e. isoflavones, endocrine effects, fiber, saponins, etc.) and its mechanism on cholesterol probably depends on the animal species being studied. In addition to soy proteins ability to reduce cholesterol, epidemiological research also suggests soy can reduce certain forms of cancer and longevity companies such as the Life Extension Foundation are now recommending soy protein isolate for the treatment of certain cancers.

      Ok, now here is where things start to get interesting as it applies the bodybuilders. Though soy proteins contain these estrogenic compounds, it appears that they are "tissue specific." One study that used Rhesus monkeys found that soy proteins had no effects on the reproductive hormones of these animals. Testosterone, DHEAS, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), testicular weight, prostatic weight, and other measurements were taken. They found no difference between male animals who ate soy protein that contained the plant estrogens and those who ate soy with the estrogens removed, leading researchers to conclude: "thus, the isoflavones (genistein and diadzein) in soy protein improve cardiovascular risk factors without apparent deleterious effects on the reproductive system..., " and "Genistein's effects appear to be tissue specific, with estrogen agonist effects on plasma lipid concentrations, plasma lipoprotein distributions and preservation of bone mass that are similar in magnitude to mammalian estrogens, but without estrogenic effects..." They finally conclude "Our data support an interpretation that soy beans estrogens have tissue specificity in part because of their mixed estrogen agonist and antagonist properties." From this and other data, it seems the phyto estrogens in soy can lower cholesterol and improve heart disease risk without systemic estrogenic effects (i.e. gyno, bodyfat increases, etc.) that would normally be seen if say a bodybuilder took estrogen pills or from the conversion of certain steroids to estrogen. This study is a little more relevant to us humans being it was done with male monkeys which are far more similar animals to people than rats. However, I think that an upper level of soy protein that contains phyto estrogens could cause systemic estrogenic effects if enough were taken, but that's only speculation on my part. Also, the use of soy isolates by men might be better cycled rather than taken all the time being we are not 100% sure at this time about the long term estrogenic potential of soy proteins in athletes. The ability of soy protein to lower cholesterol without other estrogenic effects could be useful to bodybuilders using anabolic steroids who tend to see a rise in cholesterol and/or LDL.

      Now I have saved the best part for last regarding the upside of soy proteins. Soy protein has been found to raise thyroid output in a wide range of animals from rats to rabbits and pigs. Studies done with human subjects have been harder to quantify (what else is new?), but several studies suggest an effect on thyroid hormones in people eating soy protein isolate. Soy protein has been shown to raise thyroid hormone output which could be a real advantage to bodybuilders trying to shed some fat. The intake of various high quality proteins has been associated with higher levels of thyroid hormone, but soy appears to have thyroid hormone raising abilities unique to that of other proteins. Though some research has shown changes in T3 and thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), the real effect appears to be with T4 which is elevated consistently in the studies done using animals-and to a lesser degree people-eating soy proteins. Also, some studies have found changes in the insulin/glucagon ratio that would favor reductions in cholesterol and possibly bodyfat. At this time, exactly how soy proteins have this effect on thyroid output is not well understood, but their working on it.

      So what does the above information mean to the bodybuilder? There are two points I think are the most relevant to strength athletes. (1) Though thyroid hormones are considered catabolic hormones, they are actually more catabolic to fat and carbohydrates, but stimulate protein synthesis if adequate calories are eaten and the amounts of thyroid hormones are not to high. This could be useful for increasing protein synthesis and reducing bodyfat. More research needs to be done in this area of course. (2) When a person diets the success of that diet is quickly brought to a screeching halt when the body figures out what you are up to and reduces the output of thyroid hormones. This is a reaction by the body brought on by a reduced caloric intake which reduces metabolic rate and a new caloric set point is established and the dieter is now screwed! The use of soy protein isolate to boost thyroid output could be exactly what the doctor ordered to keep thyroid levels raised during reduced calorie intake when dieting if the above evidence with soy proteins and thyroid function holds true in humans on reduced calories diets. Lets hope it does!

      Solving The Soy Dilemma

      Taking all of the above information on soy protein that we have looked at in this article I think we come up with something of a dilemma for the bodybuilder. For the average person, there is no real dilemma here as they don't care much about protein quality. Unfortunately, if a bodybuilder starts to replace too much of the other high quality proteins in their diet in favor of soy to reap some of the potential benefits of soy, than he (or she) runs the risk of losing muscle due to this lower quality protein. This would be particularly noticeable during a reduction in calories (i.e.dieting). The lower the calorie intake the higher the quality of protein needs to be to maintain lean body mass. Make no mistake about it, soy protein does not have the nitrogen retaining, anti catabolic, muscle building abilities of proteins such as whey, whole egg, red meat, etc. However, soy does appear to have some other real benefits to the bodybuilder. So what do we do? So far, it appears that a person does not need to eat a great deal of soy protein isolate to get the benefits. Estimates of ten - thirty grams a day of a high quality soy protein isolate should do the trick for most people.

      This is how I solve the dilemma and I have found this strategy works well for people. By mixing a high quality whey protein powder with a high quality soy isolate in a 2:1 ratio and eating that two - three times a day, the bodybuilder can have the best of all possible worlds (as it relates to the high BV, immune enhancing, nitrogen retaining abilities of the whey and the cholesterol lowering/thyroid stimulating abilities of the soy). To date, I have no reason to believe that mixing these two proteins will negate or interfere with the benefits or properties of either protein, but there is scant research in this area with healthy athletes. Anecdotally, the people I have told to do this mixture have given me mostly positive feedback so far.

      Plain and simple, mix in a blender two scoops of whey protein to one scoop of high quality soy protein isolate and take the mixture two-three times per day. In fact, I think with a few other key ingredients, this could make a real nice pre mixed meal replacement product for use when dieting. For now however, you can make it yourself and you might be surprised at the results...

      Bibliography

      Forsythe, W. A., Soy Protein, Thyroid Regulation and Cholesterol Metabolism. J. of Nutri. (review), 125 (3 suppl): 619S-623S, 1995.

      Anthony, A.S, et al, Soybean Isoflavones Improve Cardiovascular Risk Factors Without Affecting the reproductive System of Peripubertal Rhesus Monkeys. J. of Nutri., 125: 43-49, 1995.

      Hosokawa, Y., et al, Hepatic Cysteine dioxygenase Activity and Sulfur Amino Acid Metabolism In Rats: Possible Indicators In the Evaluation Of Protein Quality. J. of Nutri. 118: 456-461, 1988.

      Hajos, G., et al, Effects of Proteolytic Modification and Methionine Enrichment On the Nutritional Value of Soya Albumins For Rats. Nutri. Biochem. 7:481-487, 1996.

      Gotoh, N., Inhibition of Glutathione Synthesis Increases The Toxicity of Low Density Lipoprotein To Human Monocytes and Macrophages. J. Biochem. 296:151-154, 1993.

      Potter, M. S., Overview of Proposed Mechanisms For the Hypocholesterolemic Effect of Soy. J. Nutri. 125 (3 suppl): 606S-611S, 1995.

      Friedman, M, Improvements In The safety Of Food by SH-containing amino Acids and Peptides. J. Agric. Food Chem (Review). 42:3-20, 1994.

      Moundras, C., Remesy, C., Levrat, M., Demigne, C., Methionine Deficiency in Rats Fed Soy Protein Induces Hypercholesterolemia and Potentiates Lipoprotein Susceptibility to Peroxidation. J. Metabolism. 44(9): 1146-1152, 1995.

      Bounus, G., Gold, P. The Biological Activity of Undenatured Dietary Whey Proteins: Role Of Glutathione. Clin. Invest. Med. 14(4): 296-309, 1991.

      Schmuck, A. Dork, K., Anadrol Causes Breast To Grow On Top Of Bodybuilders Head. J. of ill Repute, 11:15-20, 1636, (just checking to see if anyone is actually reading my references!)



      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Copyright C 1996 by William D. Brink All rights reserved. No copies of this document can be produced without express permission of the author


      __________________
      SC..............................Never Too Old

      https://Steroidology.com


      Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it
      permanent.


    7. #7
      StoneColdNTO's Avatar
      StoneColdNTO is offline Established Member
      Points: 8,553, Level: 39
      Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 97
      Overall activity: 0%
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2002
      Location
      Canada
      Posts
      249
      Points
      8,553
      Level
      39
      Rep Power
      88

      Default

      Soy Protein: Panacea or Poison?
      By Don Matesz


      The soy bean is the darling of the health food industry these days, and soy products are most highly and fraudulently touted of all health food products. Reading all the popular press on soy products, one would naturally believe that soy is a panacea and ideal substitute for animal protein in human diets. It is claimed that soy protein is of the same quality as animal protein, yet lower in fat and devoid of cholesterol. Soy promoters make many unsubstantiated claims, especially regarding soy isoflavones, estrogen-like molecules (called xenoestrogens) found the bean. It is claimed that these isoflavones from soy products will prevent breast cancer and osteoporosis and serve as estrogen replacements for post-menopausal women. In fact, according to some prominent soy researchers, the evidence for these claims is very weak (see below).


      Promoters of soy commonly point to the low rates of heart disease, breast and prostate cancer, osteoporosis, and symptoms of menopause in Asia and claim that this is due to the "soy-based" Asian diet. But it is a stretch of imagination to call the Asian diet "soy-based". According to the non-profit Soy On Line Service (www.soyonlineservice.co.nz), the typical Japanese diet contains only 0.08 to 0.13 mg isoflavones per kg of body weight per day. That means only 5.6 to 9.1 mg of isoflavones per day for a 70 kg/154 lb. person. This amount is found in about 8 grams-less than one third of an ounce-of whole soybeans! Compare this to the average 3 to 4 pounds of food eaten daily by the typical individual. One-third of an ounce represents only 0.5 percent of the Japanese diet; one ounce is 1.5 percent of the diet.


      This pattern of soy consumption is found throughout Asia, where soy is consumed primarily as a part of very salty fermented seasonings, in the form of shoyu (wheat and soy sauce), tamari (wheat-free soy sauce), or miso paste. Asians are not snacking on soy "nuts", drinking soy milk, using isolated soy protein, and eating tofu burgers or soy hot dogs three times per day. Thus, Asians do not eat a soy-based diet! It includes some soy but it is not a major article of diet as implied by the word "based."


      This casts doubt on the claim that soy is the secret to Asian health. Consuming only as little as 9 grams of soy and 9 mg of isoflavones per day, Asians purportedly have much lower rates of heart disease, breast and prostate cancer, osteoporosis, and menopause compared to Americans. Nevertheless, promoters of soy are suggesting that protection from heart disease, etc. requires consumption of 25 grams of soy protein per day, which can provide up to 5 times as much isoflavones as found in the typical Asian diet.


      In addition, traditional fermented soy foods are quite different from the processed soy foods promoted in "health food" markets. Soy beans contain various harmful anti-nutrients, including trypsin inhibitors that block protein digestion and phytates that block mineral absorption. Traditional long term fermenting (3 to 48 months) of soy beans to produce soy sauces and miso pastes destroys significant amounts of these anti-nutrients, whereas modern factory processing to produce soy sauces, soy milk, tofu, and mock meats does not remove those harmful elements.


      Recently, in response to a petition submitted to the FDA by Protein Technologies International (PTI), a division of DuPont corporation that manufactures Supro® brand soy protein, the FDA has allowed the following health claim to be attached to soy products containing soy protein: "Diets low in saturated fat and cholesterol that include 25 grams of soy protein a day may reduce the risk of heart disease." This claim was allowed supposedly based on some clinical trials which show adding soy protein to a diet low in fat and cholesterol will result in decreases in cholesterol beyond what occurs as a result of a low-fat, low cholesterol diet alone. However, other studies have not shown such a benefit. Therefore, the allowed claim conveys uncertainty, by the phrase "may reduce the risk..." Also note that the possible benefit of soy consumption is promised only in conjunction with a diet low in fat and cholesterol, which itself "may" reduce the risk of heart disease (another uncertainty)-so if your risk goes down when consuming soy as part of a low-fat, low-cholesterol diet, is this due to the soy, or the diet?


      Similar uncertainty exists with regard to soy and other putative health benefits. Some studies have suggested that consuming soy reduces hot flashes and other menopausal symptoms and increases bone density among post-menopausal women-while others have not.


      Clearly, this is an experiment untried on a large scale. Promoters of soy suggest that it is safe to consume soy in almost any quantity but this has not been proven true. In fact, there is some rather strong evidence that ingesting soy on a daily basis, even in rather modest quantities, and certainly in large quantities, may have serious adverse effects on endocrine functions, immune system functions, and brain cell repair.


      Here are the details:


      Protein Quality
      Soy salesmen claim that soy protein is equal to animal protein. Their claims are aided by the FDA's endorsement of the Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS), which uses soy protein as the standard. However, the PDCAAS disregards digestibility, rating proteins only by their amino acid score; and further, the FDA simply defined soy protein as the standard, even though animal proteins have superior digestibility and amino acid profiles. Outside the FDA, nutritional biochemists still rate proteins according to biological value, and the standard for biological value is human milk protein (an animal protein), which is given a score of 100. The biological value of soy protein is only 73, and all animal proteins rate superior to soy protein on the scale of biological value, with egg and whey protein at the top of the heap, equal to human milk.


      Reproductive Function
      Soy isoflavones are estrogen-like molecules. Environmental toxicologists refer to such things as xenoestrogens. Many health care professionals are extremely concerned that human health is adversely affected by increasing intake of xenoestrogens, including soy isoflavones, because they stimulate various undesirable growth processes in girls and women, and may interfere with normal hormone dependent development of boys and functional capacities of men.
      In 1997, researchers reported that "The daily exposure of infants to isoflavones in soy infant formulas is 6- to 11 fold higher on a body weight basis than the dose that has hormonal effects in adults consuming soy foods. Circulating concentrations of isoflavones in the seven infants fed soy-based formula were 13000-22000 times higher than plasma oestradiol concentrations in early life, and may be sufficient to exert biological effects, whereas the contribution of isoflavones from breast-milk and cow-milk is negligible." [Lancet 1997 Jul 5, 350: 9070, 23-7]


      In 1998 researchers from New Zealand reported that the rate of isoflavone intake in infants fed soy-based formulas, cereals, dinners, and biscuits "is much greater than that shown in adult humans to alter reproductive hormones." They advised: "Since the available evidence suggests that infants can digest and absorb dietary phytoestrogens in active forms and since neonates are generally more susceptible than adults to perturbations of the sex steroid milieu, we suggest that it would be highly desirable to study the effects of soy isoflavones on steroid-dependent developmental processes in human babies. [Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 1998 Mar 217: 3, 247-53]


      Previous to these recent studies, in 1982, pediatric endocrinologists in Puerto Rico reported an increase in the incidence of premature breast development in girls under eight years of age. Of 130 cases studied, 85 involved breast development in girls under 18 months of age. Of those 85 cases, 22 were found associated with use of soy formula, rich in isoflavones. [Am J Dis Child 1986 Dec 140: 12 1263-7]


      The evidence for cancer preventive properties of soy foods and isoflavones is rather weak.1 Some epidemiological studies have shown a relation between soy consumption and protection from breast and endometrial cancer, but they have not been able to separate the effect of soy from that of other significant factors of Asian diets, such as low fat and high fiber, fish, whole grain, vegetable, fruit and non-soy legume intake-especially since soy is such a small part of Asian diets. Meanwhile, some clinical evidence suggests that high doses of isolated soy protein and isoflavones (not parts of traditional Asian diets) actually may be cancer promoters.


      In 1996, one group of researchers fed 38 grams of soy protein isolate containing 38 mg of isoflavones to both pre- and post- menopausal women for five months. It is of interest to note that these researchers reported "No changes were found in plasma prolactin, sex hormone binding globulin, cholesterol, high density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations."[emphasis added] Perhaps the women weren't also on a low fat, low cholesterol diet? Or maybe they were on such a diet and that doesn't reliably reduce cholesterol or tryglycerides either?


      They did find, however, that there was a greater production of breast fluid in premenopausal women during the months of soy consumption, and "plasma estradiol [estrogen] concentrations were elevated erratically throughout a 'composite' menstrual cycle during the months of soy consumption." Further, they reported "Of potential concern was the cytological detection of epithelial hyperplasia in 7 of 24 women (29.2%) during the months they were consuming soy protein isolate" and they concluded "this pilot study indicates that prolonged consumption of soy protein isolate has a stimulatory effect on the premenopausal female breast, characterized by increased secretion of breast fluid, the appearance of hyperplastic [abnormal] epithelial cells, and elevated levels of plasma estradiol." [Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 1996 Oct 5: 10, 785-94]


      In 1997, another group of researchers studied the effect of soy isoflavone genistein on breast cancer cells and reported that "dietary estrogens at low concentrations do not act as antiestrogens but act like DDT and estradiol to stimulate human breast cancer cells to enter the cell cycle" [Environ Health Perspect 1997 Apr 105 Suppl 3, 633-6].


      In the September 1998 issue of Cancer Research, William G Helferich, Ph.D., from the University of Illinois, reported that human estrogen-dependent breast cancer cells injected into mice multiplied if the mice were fed genistein. Helferich says "We've seen a lot of good research that genistein is a cancer preventer, but it is dangerous to people who already have cancer....Caution is warranted."2


      An epidemiological study done in China found that high soy intake did not provide protection from breast cancer ["Diet and breast cancer in Shanghai and Yianjin, China," Br J Cancer 1995 71: 1353-8]. At a recent conference on soy foods and health, soy advocate and author of The Simple Soybean and Your Health Mike Messina Ph.D. stated, "It's simply not possible as yet to draw any conclusions about soy consumption and cancer prevention, but further research is certainly warranted" [Honolulu Star Bulletin 11/19/99, https://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html]. This is completely contrary, of course, to the image of soy presented by advertisers who would like women to believe that ingesting soy will prevent breast cancer.


      Other research has shown that some premenopausal women ingesting 60 grams of soy protein daily (45 mg isoflavones) have leutenizing hormone levels 33% of normal and follicle stimulating hormone levels only 53% of normal levels [Am J Clin Nutr 1994 Sep 60:3, 333-40]. These levels are low enough to inhibit ovulation in some individuals. In 1994 a team of researchers reported that in vitro "Genistein, and inhibitor of tyrosine kinases, including c-kit, blocked oocyte growth and disrupted follicle morphology." In translation, genistein blocked egg growth and caused abnormal changes in the shape of the follicle [Dev Biol 1994 Jan 161:1, 194-205].


      There is good reason to suspect soy estrogens as a cause for male infertility. Over the past 30 to 50 years, as human exposure to xenoestrogens (including soy isoflavones, in so many processed foods containing soy protein) has increased, there has also been an increase in incidence of developmental disorders of male reproductive organs and a decrease in sperm counts. Researchers have found that soy isoflavones genistein and daidzein inhibit the activity of an enzyme required for proper metabolism of steroids critical to hormonal functions-in particular, this enzyme is required for the production of testosterone. [Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1995 Oct 24 215:3, 1137-44.]


      Soy isoflavones have been shown to interfere with normal reproductive functions on the cellular level. In 1996, researchers showed that genistein is a strong inducer of DNA strand breaks, thus clastogenic and mutagenic. [Food Chem Toxicol 1996, 35: 605-13] In 1998, researchers reported that "coumestrol and genistein are clastogenic in cultured mammalian cells and lead to gene mutations."[Z Lebensm Unters Forsch A 1998, 206: 367-73] Below we will report how this may affect the immune and nervous systems.


      Soy and Thyroid Function
      A significant body of research has suggested that the estrogen-like soy isoflavones in 25 grams of soy protein can seriously disrupt other endocrine functions. In the late 1950s and early 1960s there were reports that infants fed soy formula developed goiter (enlarged thyroid). A study done in Japan in 1991 found that diffuse goiter and hypothyroidism appeared in half of the subjects after consuming 30 gm per day of pickled roasted soybeans for three months [Ishisuki Y et Al., "The effects on the thyroid gland of soybeans administered experimentally in healthy subjects," Nippon Nibunpi Gawk Zasshi (1991) 67:622-629].
      In 1997 it was shown that the supposedly healthful soy estrogens/isoflavones suppress thyroid activity.3 As thyroid inhibitors, soy isoflavones are considered to be somewhat more potent than common anti-thyroid drugs, working to inhibit action of an enzyme that converts the amino acid tyrosine to thyroid hormone. Daniel R. Doerge, Ph.D., one of the researchers from the FDA National Center for Toxicological Research involved in the study that isolated and studied the anti-thyroid mechanism of the soy isoflavones, says: "I don't think you can get into trouble if you eat a few soyfoods within the bounds of a balanced diet...But I see substantial risks from taking soy supplements or eating huge amounts of soy foods for their putative disease-preventive value. There is definitely potential for interaction with the thyroid."4


      Soy and Immune Function
      Several studies have shown that soy isoflavones suppress the immune system. In fact, genistein has been studied as a potential drug to give to transplant recipients, who are always given immune suppressant drugs to prevent their bodies from rejecting the foreign transplant tissues. One team of researchers studied the immunosuppressive potential of genistein and reported, "Our data suggest that genistein is a powerful immunosuppressive agent, with no toxic effects on T cells, and has the potential for use in the prophylaxis and treatment of allograft rejection" [Transplantation 1991 Feb 51:2, 448-50]. In other words, genistein has a immune suppressant effect comparable to that of immune suppressant drugs given to transplant patients.


      Other researchers have found that genistein works as an immune suppressant by causing chromatin fragmentation [Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1993 Jul 30 194:2, 944-50]. In 1998 researchers reported that "Exposure of mammalian cells to genistein results in DNA damage that is similar to that induced by the topo-II inhibitor and chromosomal mutagen, m-amsa." These researchers found that "genistein is a chromosomal mutagen" that causes mutations and cell death of human lymph cells [Mutat Res 1998 Aug 31 405:1, 41-56].


      Soy and Brain Function
      According to the Honolulu Star-Bulletin (11/9/99) newspaper, ingestion of soy products has recently been strongly linked to development of dementia. The National Institute of Aging sponsored a study of 3, 634 Japanese-American men in Hawaii, which found that those who ate the most tofu had the most advanced dementia and on autopsy the brains of men who ate more than two servings per week of tofu weighed less than the brains of men who consumed fewer than two servings of tofu per week. The rate of impairment was also found correlated with soy intake. Those who ate no tofu showed mental abilities of men five years younger, while those who ate the most tofu tested as if they were five years older. Of 27 dietary items checked, including meat, only soy was found consistently correlated with increased incidence and severity of dementia [https://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html].


      This finding is supported by experimental evidence which has shown that soy isoflavones decrease DNA repair and synthesis in the brains of rats and mice [Yakisich JS, et Al, "Early effects of protein kinase modulator on DNA synthesis in rat cerebral cortex," Exp Neurol 1999 Sep; 159 (1): 164-76; Schmitz C, Axmacher B, Sunker U, Korr H, "Age-related changes of DNA repair and mitochondrial DNA synthesis in the mouse brain," Acta Neuropathol (Berl) 1999; 97(1): 71-81] .


      According to the Star-Bulletin, this study linking tofu to dementia was presented at a conference on soy and health sponsored by soy foods producers such as DuPont and Archer Daniel Midlands. Commenting on the conference, the lead investigator in the Hawaii study, Dr. Lon White, stated "The majority of scientists said the data they were talking about for beneficial effects [of soy foods] on health is very weak" and doesn't really support health claims for soy foods.
      The Money Game


      Thus, right now it appears that there is sufficient contradictory evidence to conclude that we don't really know yet whether ingesting soy in large amounts as food or as isoflavone supplements will be beneficial or harmful. Obviously it is best not to consume soy or its isoflavones in the large amounts recommended by soy product manufacturers and "approved" by the FDA. Until more is known, it would be best not to exceed the levels of soy food consumption found in the typical Asian diet, about 8 to 10 grams (one-third ounce) daily-and certainly one should avoid using isolated soy protein or high dose soy isoflavone supplements.
      So why are soybeans so highly touted in the popular media? Here is my hypothesis: Up until about 10 years ago, most of the soy grown in the U.S. was fed to cattle or used for industrial purposes, such as making margarine, paints, plastics, drugs, cleaners, emulsifiers, and so on. However, there is a limit to the profit to be made in this use of soy. You can make much more money if you can get people to eat the soy-and especially if you can get people to believe that it is the panacea for many ills, since people willingly pay dearly for panaceas.


      The soy pushers are some of the largest, wealthiest corporations in the U.S. For example, Monsanto (the same corporation behind rBGH mentioned above) markets its "Round Up Ready" genetically engineered soybean along with its Round Up pesticide-the soybean is engineered, not to be more nutritious or delicious, but to be capable of withstanding larger doses of Round Up! Another example is Archer Daniels Midland (a.k.a. ADM), which advertises itself as "supermarket for the world," and is heavily invested in producing soy products. DuPont Chemical is also involved in the soy market, through its subsidiary Protein Technologies International, a soy protein powder maker. Green Giant is selling soybean mock meats.


      All of these big boys are interested in getting you to eat soy, drink soy, and take soy pills. They don't really care about your health, only about their profits. So you should take all soy advertisements and popular articles and books with a big grain of salt.



      *** ***


      Don Matesz, M.A., C.N., C.R.T. is an associate member of the International Association of Resistance Trainers and graduate of the American Academy of Nutrition. Don resides in Toledo, Ohio, and is available for fitness consultation by phone and e-mail, and personal training in Toledo. Call (419) 476-2967 for rates and details. You can also reach Don by E-mailing: matesz@earthlink.net

      1 Fitzpatrick M, "Soy Isoflavones: Panacea or Poison?", submitted to the FDA in an effort to block GRAS status for soy isoflavones, published in Health and Healing Wisdom, Volume 22, No 3, p. 3. Also available at www.soyonline.com.
      2 Osborne SE, "Does Soy Have a Dark Side?", Natural Health, March 1999, p. 158.
      3 Divi RL et al., "Anti-thyroid isoflavones from the soybean," Biochem Pharmacol (1997)54:1087-1096.
      4 Osborne SE, op cit, p. 113.
      SC..............................Never Too Old

      https://Steroidology.com


      Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it
      permanent.


    8. #8
      Speedracer59's Avatar
      Speedracer59 is offline FG Resident
      Points: 17,509, Level: 84
      Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 341
      Overall activity: 0%
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2002
      Location
      South
      Posts
      1,691
      Points
      17,509
      Level
      84
      Rep Power
      95

      Default

      Great read !
      "There is no such thing as big pussies just little dicks. If it is loose just keep packing dick to it."

    9. #9
      Klash's Avatar
      Klash is offline Elite FG Resident
      Points: 49,366, Level: 97
      Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 184
      Overall activity: 0%
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2003
      Location
      Fitnessgeared
      Posts
      3,721
      Points
      49,366
      Level
      97
      Rep Power
      406

      Default

      That's all I need to know,
      Thanks Stone

      Klash

    10. #10
      Speedracer59's Avatar
      Speedracer59 is offline FG Resident
      Points: 17,509, Level: 84
      Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 341
      Overall activity: 0%
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2002
      Location
      South
      Posts
      1,691
      Points
      17,509
      Level
      84
      Rep Power
      95

      Default

      BTW Stone, I hear Austin is coming back. He is my fav. also.
      "There is no such thing as big pussies just little dicks. If it is loose just keep packing dick to it."

    11. #11
      Tinfish's Avatar
      Tinfish is offline Senior Resident
      Points: 9,197, Level: 41
      Level completed: 33%, Points required for next Level: 303
      Overall activity: 0%
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2002
      Location
      Utah
      Posts
      927
      Points
      9,197
      Level
      41
      Rep Power
      91

      Default

      • Get the Fitness Geared
        Forum App Now!
      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien

      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien
      • Soy Protien
      Damn. VERY long but good read.
      Tinfish@Ziplip.com
      Mod @ SM

    Similar Threads

    1. Clomid = Juicy protien batch?
      By fresno_smooth in forum Off Topic Stuff
      Replies: 18
      Last Post: 03-02-2003, 05:07 PM
    2. has anyone heard or tried protien crystal
      By hongkongguy in forum Nutrition & Supplements
      Replies: 10
      Last Post: 02-23-2003, 11:22 AM
    3. Protien workout consumption
      By wrstlr69sdnl in forum Nutrition & Supplements
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: 01-29-2003, 10:07 AM
    4. How much protien do you get in 1day?
      By RC51racer in forum Nutrition & Supplements
      Replies: 16
      Last Post: 01-28-2003, 10:25 PM
    5. Try these protien bars.
      By Speedracer59 in forum Nutrition & Supplements
      Replies: 11
      Last Post: 01-08-2003, 12:16 PM

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •  
    Pro Wrists Straps
    Join us
    About us
    www.Fitnessgeared.com is a Bodybuilding Fitness health & Training Discussion forum for all levels from beginner to advanced. We offer everything from Nutrition, Supplements, Fat Loss, Weight Training, Dieting, to achieve your goals to get in the shape you want.