I'm baack, I need some help from PH vets this is LOOOONG

[LivinLarger]

TweetOk first of all I guess I should re-introduce myself. I have been around the internet scene for around 5 years now but have been laying low for the last 1 year or so. Some of you may remember me from elite, tredia, muscle chemisty, and many others. I have been lifting most of my life I have always loved it. I got into steroids about 4 1/2 years ago, I made it to 268# at 6'4 naturally before touching the juice...I know how to train/eat.
After a few years into the juice I was a hard 287 with 20" biceps and was getting ready to enter my first contest the Mr. Michigan.
I was very established with the local bodybuilding scene, had tons of cool bodybuilder friends, had a hot ass stripper girlfriend (started after she met me not typical strippper either OK). Life was great and things were on track right where I wanted them.
Then I got stupid, I was enjoying the night life but I did not like to drink ever, I was introduced to G H b by a fellow bb'er. I liked the stuff, no hangover, and it did not hinder my training. Anyways to make a long story short I ended up getting busted, not selling but buying it, this "friend" was under D E A surveilance for dealing coke, I had no part of that ever but no matter they had me on tape buying g. I ended up with a federal mist charge and one year probation.
I was in the middle of a cycle when I got busted, after a week in jail I had no supplies left at all and no way to get to any either. Either way I was not going to do anything illegal anyways, I ended up with a year probation which I am almost done serving. To make a long story short, I ended up in a deep depression I am still fighting, I was not allowed to train at my gym any longer per the courts order, I was unable to end my cycle correctly and crashed long and hard. My girlfriend left me, my cat ran away, and I dropped down to a soft 245 too depressed to train or eat properly. I recently have come to the decision that I have to somehow get back into good shape without breaking the law before I go off the deep end for good.
Although I know they will never match the gear I used to use and love I am going to use prohormones to help me get into shape and get on with my life. I know all aspects of gear, ancilliarys, etc etc but I am new to prohormones. I have read some info here and other places primer and it was very helpful but I still have a few ?'s

1. why the 2 wks on 2 wks off, is this really enough time to recover HPTA in between them? Do you even bother with recovery after two wks?

2. From what I have read the new metylated orals look somewhat promising m1t and m5aa in particular, I know how to keep my liver values in check, has anyone done an extended cycle of these and monitored liver values, BP, Blood work etc? If one were to do this and levels were acceptable why couldn't you just keep going? I know post cycle recovery will be more difficult, but moreso than say, an extended fina cycle?

3. Has anyone ever attempted a kindof HRT with 1-test, or 4AD? Yes or no how would you go about it and if not why?

I have more questions but these are a few I'd like to see some opinions on.
Also no flames for the G OK I was stupid, I have paid the price, I am still paying the price, I have learned my lesson and I don't need to hear any crap about it so please no flames about that.

I have used almost everykind of gear out there, slin etc. I have never had a side of anykind minus a few backne zits once from some dirty t200 I know these prohormones can have wicked sides but I have been tollerant with the real stuff.

With that said I am excited to at least sorta be back into the scene, I have really missed the bb scene the people and the gym. I am looking foreward to getting back on the horse errr pony I guess.
Looking forward to some opinions, wow my first post anywhere in a loooong time.
LL

[jipped genes]

Tweetwhat up bro! welcome to FG glad to have ya. i am no prohormone vet but i am currently trying M1T right now and have done many more before i started gear.


1. why the 2 wks on 2 wks off, is this really enough time to recover HPTA in between them? Do you even bother with recovery after two wks?

this seems to be a favorite of PH users i just go for 1 month cycles and take 1 month off in between to recover.



2. From what I have read the new metylated orals look somewhat promising m1t and m5aa in particular, I know how to keep my liver values in check, has anyone done an extended cycle of these and monitored liver values, BP, Blood work etc? If one were to do this and levels were acceptable why couldn't you just keep going? I know post cycle recovery will be more difficult, but moreso than say, an extended fina cycle?

as long as you have been off 10-15 mg of M1T and 400 mg of a good transdermal 4AD is a very potent stack. most of the feedback i have gotten during my research of M1T before i started has been good as well. 10# in 1 month is common. it seems to be pretty hepetoxic so i would run a max of 20mg even if you do alot of gear and no longer than 4-5 weeks. treat it like drol to be on the safe side, i am going at the end of my M1T cycle to get bloodwork to find out how tough it is on the liver.


3. Has anyone ever attempted a kindof HRT with 1-test, or 4AD? Yes or no how would you go about it and if not why?

i have tried 4ad to bridge gear cycles with no success i just cant recover. similar to HRT because you never really come off. also i think prohormones after 5 weeks loose thier effectivness. 1 test's bioavailability is very poor i wouldnt mess with it when you have M1T which is a real steroid and legal.


i know thats not much but its not my forte. good luck bro. i would just get in the gym and imerse yourself into the lifestyle again and then maybe down the road do a PH cycle. you will find a good group of guys and gals here. enjoy!

[NPursuit]

Tweet

Originally posted by LivinLarger
1. why the 2 wks on 2 wks off, is this really enough time to recover HPTA in between them? Do you even bother with recovery after two wks? LL

Just to add onto what Jipped already stated. M1T is very toxic and from what we know right now cycles should be no longer than 4 weeks. The reason the 2 week on 2 week off cycle is pushed is because most people's gains hault after 2 weeks and sides start to increase. From some of the tests people have done M1T shuts people down in as little as 3 days, so yes PCT is required after a 2 week cycle. Preferably Nolva.

[LivinLarger]

TweetThanks Jipped good info, BTW by saying HRT I mean hormone replacent treatment, basically saying yeah I'm shut down but I will get my test through other methods. (not expecting to ever "recover")
At this point in my life I could care less if my test comes from by my body, or a pro hormone capable of making test. I plan on seeing a doc later for HRT but I was just curious if anyone had ever used pro-hormones for this purpose.
The way I was forced to end the last one did some serious damage to my natural output and I would need to spend some serious time and money with an endocrinologist to get me back into order.

[jipped genes]

Tweetyeah i got ya bro, i was just sayin that 4ad will loose its effect unlike a long ester test used in hrt. it may be because 4ad has to go through enzymatic changes before it can become an active hormone and the body may stop producing or reduce the production of certain enzymes because it feels a certain hormone level is too high so it can stay in homeostasis.

[Cipher]

Tweet

Originally posted by LivinLarger

1. why the 2 wks on 2 wks off, is this really enough time to recover HPTA in between them? Do you even bother with recovery after two wks?

2. From what I have read the new metylated orals look somewhat promising m1t and m5aa in particular, I know how to keep my liver values in check, has anyone done an extended cycle of these and monitored liver values, BP, Blood work etc? If one were to do this and levels were acceptable why couldn't you just keep going? I know post cycle recovery will be more difficult, but moreso than say, an extended fina cycle?

3. Has anyone ever attempted a kindof HRT with 1-test, or 4AD? Yes or no how would you go about it and if not why?

I have more questions but these are a few I'd like to see some opinions on.
Also no flames for the G OK I was stupid, I have paid the price, I am still paying the price, I have learned my lesson and I don't need to hear any crap about it so please no flames about that.

I have used almost everykind of gear out there, slin etc. I have never had a side of anykind minus a few backne zits once from some dirty t200 I know these prohormones can have wicked sides but I have been tollerant with the real stuff.

With that said I am excited to at least sorta be back into the scene, I have really missed the bb scene the people and the gym. I am looking foreward to getting back on the horse errr pony I guess.
Looking forward to some opinions, wow my first post anywhere in a loooong time.
LL

1. I am on a M1T cycle right now and as Npresser stated...gains start to taper off after 2 weeks and sides increase. I have a log which may help you out.

2. I havent did any tests before or after and the M1T im taking doesnt have any nac in it however I am taking Milk Thistle to help.

3. Jipped has better info on this than I do.

Glad to see you back bro

Ciph

[LivinLarger]

TweetTY NP also, that brings me to a few other ?'s about recovery then.
Bear with me, I have been gone awhile:

1. I thought m1t did not convert to estrogen or at least at a very low rate.

2. Nolva only blocks estrogen at it's receptor sites, this seems to conflict with #1.

3 Unless things have changed, as far as I know nolva also does not stimulate LH the way that clomid does, and that takes 3 or more wks to "complete" correctly anyhow.

I guess I just do not see a need for Nolvadex here at all, and that seems to be the new thing but I don't get it. If anything I would think HCG would provide the best jump to normal HPTA, with clomid a very distant second.

[Cipher]

Tweet

Originally posted by LivinLarger
TY NP also, that brings me to a few other ?'s about recovery then.
Bear with me, I have been gone awhile:

1. I thought m1t did not convert to estrogen or at least at a very low rate.

2. Nolva only blocks estrogen at it's receptor sites, this seems to conflict with #1.

3 Unless things have changed, as far as I know nolva also does not stimulate LH the way that clomid does, and that takes 3 or more wks to "complete" correctly anyhow.

Not sure about 2 and 3 but number 1 I can answer.

1. M1T does not convert into estrogen.

[NPursuit]

TweetRecent studies show Nolva to be superior in every aspect over Clomid. I'll dig up a couple of articles for you a little later. I'm off to the gym.

[trip]

Tweetll,

Remember you from way back, sorry bout the difficulties.

Have you gotten your test levels checked recently?

Low test, low serotonin...the happy chemical in the brain, thus most likely the depression. You do not sound like a lazy uniformed guy who is not trying to better his life, best guess is the depression is more a chemical issue which should be addressed first.

Say this from the standpoint, pro-hormone is not neccesarily going to help with depression, ie, up the serotonin, it could have opposite effect making you feel worse, which would just compound things.

Out of curiosity, how old are you?

Congrats on overcoming the obstacles and getting the lifting bug back, that is a long term payoff for sure.

good luck

[LivinLarger]

TweetPursuit thanks, I have lots to catch up on.

Trip, glad someone remembers me, or rather whats left of me lol.

I am getting help for the depression, I had to, it got to the point where I really had no choice in the matter. I am searching for a med that will help with my mood, so far no luck really the ssri's make me very tired and even more unmotivated. I've been doing some homework in this area and I am working with my doctor on some other options, possibly a dopamine agonist.
I know lifting wont solve all of my problems, but I hope it will help somewhat and besides it's a part of me....I'm sure you can relate.
I obviously firmly believe that there is nothing morally wrong with using steroids or any other substance to improve your physical self. Obviously this option is no longer viable to me so from now on I need and want to play by the rules.
I am 31, after losing the body I had worked years to achieve, it takes a hard blow to your psyche. Not to mention having to COMPLETELY revamp your lifestyle and constantly hearing from everyone you run into how much weight you have lost etc etc.
Amazing how many friends you lose when you are minus about 45 lbs of muscle.
I am getting my test levels checked soon as I do think it could be a factor in the depression. It's low I can just tell, and I could get it back on my own but I can't risk anything at all without an RX.
I would have done it sooner but,,,, if you have ever been severely depressed you would now how you just kinda let time go by.

It's gonna be a long road back, but I'll get almost there eventually, thank God for muscle memory.
Thanks for the advice
LL

[NPursuit]

TweetHere is an article

By William Llewellyn

Introduction

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.





Clomid and Nolvadex


I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.


Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH


But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.



The Estrogen Clomid


The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.



Conclusion


To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

[LivinLarger]

TweetWow good info BL knows his stuff for sure.

As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy.

This has my attention, why not stay on nolva period? He suggests that the sensitivity to LH only increases with time.

Thanks for bringing me up to date, at least on the nolva.

[jipped genes]

Tweet

Originally posted by LivinLarger
Wow good info BL knows his stuff for sure.



This has my attention, why not stay on nolva period? He suggests that the sensitivity to LH only increases with time.

Thanks for bringing me up to date, at least on the nolva.

thats what i would do. i wont use clomid anymore for anything.

m1t dosnt aromatize 4 ad does but it still is a prohormone so its not like 750 mg of test. i would run no anti e during a prohormone cycle unless your gyno prone.

[trip]

Tweetll,

Yes that time going by thing with depression is a tough one, and then add in the body untransformation and it's doubly tough.

Good move on going with the doctor, and yes, get the test levels checked first.

The whole point in going through all this stuff is to hopefully learn something. So, be smart and do things right, ie, get the test checked, stick with the doc on the ssri's, get in the gym.

That's the best recipe for success right now, when you turn this thing around you want it too stay that way.

And the muscle memory, ahhhh, that's a thing of glory, and works like a charm every time, so don't worry about that one.

All in all you got everything right and are going in the right direction, try and keep the moementum moving forward, and if you stop or slow down, try not to be hard on yourself, it's the chemicals, not your character, or attitude, or desires.

Good Luck
triip