Clomid, the big lie?

[LOCO]

Tweettaken from CJM... kinda interesting..



[QUOTE]

Clomid, the big lie?


Hey bro's, I just found this on AR. It is very interesting, I will keep everyone updated.

CLOMID - THE BIG LIE
Like everyone else who has ever read a single book (or every book for that matter) on the proper use of anabolics, I usually included a course of Clomid after each cycle. It was the responsible thing to do. So they say. There was just one little problem with this procedure. It seemed to make the recovery and the return of libido, testicular size, sperm count, seminal volume and normal testosterone levels worse. How can this be? Maybe I was just a weird exception to the rule. One doctor suggested I might have some bizarre feedback loop that gave the drug its negative effects. Maybe I was crazy. Maybe not.

The simple truth of the matter is this: the thinking on Clomid is based on some very sketchy evidence which has been parroted endlessly among the bodybuilding community. In a way, I'm at fault myself. Allow me to explain.

A few years back, I co-wrote an article with Brock Strasser called "The Steroid Summit." In that piece, I mentioned Clomid and ejaculate volume. Where I was going with this was the fact that I noticed a definite decrease in ejaculate volume and this would indicate that Clomid wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. Brock replied "Oh yeah, Clomid will definitely increase ejaculate" and he went on to say how male porn stars are using it to enhance their "bursts of drama" so to speak. We were tackling a lot of topics and I didn't want to dispute his contention so I let it go. At any rate, wouldn't you know... the rumor about porn stars and Clomid ran rampant. I started hearing it everywhere, even in places unassociated with bodybuilding.

I knew I couldn't be the only person experiencing negative effects from Clomid so I did a little personal survey. It turns out I wasn't as weird as I thought. Out of over 100 bodybuilders I questioned, about 1 in 4 experienced in the use of steroids and aromatase blockers admitted that Clomid didn't have the effects they were hoping for. Many also claimed that Nolvadex, which has a very similar structure to Clomid, caused a loss in libido and a weak ejaculation. Even among those who felt it helped them, there were complaints about "emotional distress" and "weepiness", both of which suggest an increase in estrogen. So how can anyone be sure Clomid is actually beneficial?

Still, the rumors persist.

I was on a popular internet message board recently and someone was claiming that they weren't getting back their atrophied testicles even after using 50mgs of Clomid for two weeks. The resident "guru" suggested taking 100mgs for another two weeks. This line of thinking is straight from the middle ages when doctors prescribed leeches to cure a disease -- if the patient got sicker from the treatment the solution was; more leeches! Ridiculous? Of course. Some things never change.

There are several major problems associated with Clomid, as well as Arimidex, Nolvadex, Teslac or any other estrogen blocker. For one thing, all these compounds are indiscriminate in how much estrogen they block. So what's bad about that? Well, the whole point of using an anti-estrogen is to protect against the spillover of estrogen that comes with the excessive use of androgens. If the body can't metabolize all that testosterone, it aromatizes into estrogens. What the experts fail to address is the fact that the amount of aromatization varies greatly from individual to individual. If the steroid dosages are moderate, there might not be any aromatization of any consequence, and the anti-estrogens may lower levels below what they were normally! And keep one very important fact in mind. A little estrogen in men is necessary for a healthy libido. (It's also necessary for other things such as bone density, skin tone, etc., but I can't think of anything more important to most men than their dicks.)

More recently, it has even been suggested that estrogen may play a role in the proliferation of androgen receptors. This may explain why some experienced steroid users claim that they get decreased results when adding an anti-estrogen to their stack. It was once thought that anti-estrogens such as Nolvadex decreased IGF-1, but this has not been validated with any concrete evidence. Nevertheless, studies done on rats found that androgen receptor binding was dramatically increased after the administration of estradiol, increasing the anabolic potency of the androgenic steroid. If nothing else, this shows that estrogen is, on some level, directly or indirectly involved in the process of promoting muscle growth. There's also the added element of strength and size gains due to the water retention that estrogen inflicts. And just as a kicker, anti- estrogens may also increase sex hormone binding globulin which is the last thing you want when coming off a cycle.

In the case of Clomid, the effects may be even worse than other anti-estrogens since Clomid is a mild estrogen itself. The basic theory behind its use (which is sounding more and more stupid every day) is essentially that the Clomid will occupy the estrogen receptor sites thus disallowing the formation of more estrogen. Maybe. What's more likely in cases where estrogen levels are normal, the Clomid will simply add more estrogen. This may the reason for some people's apparent aversion to Clomid and its estrogen-like side effects.

Even if Clomid did lower estrogen, there's no evidence that lower estrogen will necessarily lead to increased testosterone, yet this is the premise which everyone follows. Clomid has also been known to produce a decrease in the LH response to LH releasing hormone. This is something that has been known for a while, (findings on this date as far back as 1978) yet curiously ignored. Naturally, studies aren't conducted to benefit the bodybuilder on steroids, so we must learn to read between the line sometimes. In doing so, conclusions can be drawn. All too often steroid gurus draw them incorrectly.

The notion of increased sperm count is also one of contention. Allow me to get technical for a moment and break my own rule about references for a second while I cite this quote from a study done on Clomid.

"Treatments with idiopathic oligospermia for six to nine months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin testosterone and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with low sperm count below normal basal FSH levels. In cases where sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibitory effect."

What this suggests in plain English is that not everyone reacts to Clomid treatment in the same way and sperm levels must be abnormally suppressed for the drug to be of any benefit. And even in situations where that is the case, the side effect was lowered Follicle Stimulating Hormone, which as you may know, controls the amount of Leutinizing Hormone we release which in turn regulates how much testosterone we have. This is why so many bodybuilders claim to crash after coming off of the Clomid.

Judging from this information it's clear that Clomid, at best, is a crap shoot and its benefits, if any, are temporary. So why is everyone still taking it?

Next week, in part two of BottomLine Bodybuilding excerpt, Clomid The Big Lie, Nelson tells us why bodybuilders are still taking Clomid and making a big mistake! He also lets you in on some other drugs that really help you recover from a steroid cycle properly

[drab4]

TweetHi bro, there's another thread on the same article over here:

https://www.fitnessgeared.com/forum/s...threadid=18783

I added my comments there (I don't like it!).

[lxorl]

Tweetso your saying clomid could have actually contributed to the gyno that set in as my cycle was ending?? should I take nolva now that I have ended clomid therapy??

[mrf10]

TweetI dont buy it

[trefling]

TweetI wish some experienced Mods would chime in on this one, didn't Elite also start the rumor that Fina is hard on the kidneys which is proving not to be true? I still think using Clomid, Nolva, and Clen post cycle is the way to go to deal with excess estrogen and cortsone problems.

[natoli220]

Tweetif it works don't fix it.

[spidey]

Tweet That is a direct quote from Nelson Montana's book. While I am sure Mr. Montana is sincere, I believe he is sincerely wrong. Everyone else seems to think highly of Mr. Montana's knowledge but personally I have never heard him say anything that made sense scientifically. Even if his knowledge of bodybuilding in general is as vast as some seem to think, his knowledge of chemistry and biology is extremely limited. He has demonstrated this on several occasions. Furthermore, his conclusions are often drawn on his misunderstanding of chemistry/biology and so are themselves flawed. This is just another of those flawed conclusions based on his basic misunderstanding of the way clomid and nolvadex work. What makes it so insidious is the fact that he is often PARTLY right which makes his arguments seem more plausible. For instance, "Clomid is in itself a weak estrogen". That is PARTLY right. Clomid (and nolvadex) are, in fact, estrogen agonists/antagonists. This means that they can function as a weak estrogen (agonist) in some cells while in others, they function as antiestrogens (antagonists). Nolva functions as an antiestrogen in breast tissue. This is why it was developed as a drug to fight breast cancer. Breast cancers are estrogen dependant. Starve the tumor of estrogen and it shrinks. If nolvadex was acting as a weak estrogen, it could actually make the cancer grow! There are other weaknesses in his arguments but I don't have time to go into all of them right now. If this thread is still going tomorrow, maybe I will elaborate some more. I mean no disrespect to Mr. Montana. I just think he is wrong.

[rado]

Tweetalthough I've never taken any anti's and have read numerous articles on this and others, i don't buy it....


Clomid is not an anabolic/androgenic steroid. Since it is a synthetic estrogen it belongs, however, to the group of sex hormones. In school medicine Clomid is normally used to trigger ovulation. Clomid also has a strong influence on the hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis. It stimulates the hypo-physis to release more gonadotropin so that a faster and higher re-lease of FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hor-mone) occurs. This results in an elevated endogenous (body's own) testosterone level. Clomid is especially effective when the body's own testosterone production, due to the intake of anabolic/androgenic steroids, is suppressed. In most cases Clomid can normalize the tes-tosterone level and the spermatogenesis (sperm development) within 10- 14 days. For this reason Clomid is primarily taken after steroids are discontinued. At this time it is extremely important to bring the testosterone production to a normal level as quickly as possible so that the loss of strength and muscle mass is minimized. Even better results can be achieved if Clomid is combined with HCG or when Clomid is used after the intake of HCG.

Paradoxically, although Clomid is a synthetic estrogen it also works as an antiestrogen. The reason is that Clomid has only a very low estrogenic effect and thus the stronger estrogens which, for example, form during the aromatization of steroids, are blocked at the recep-tors. These would include those that develop during the aromatiz-ing of steroids. This does not prevent the steroids from aromatizing but the increased estrogen is mostly deactivated since it cannot at-tach to the receptors. The increased water retention and the possible signs of feminization can thus be reduced or even completely avoided. Since the antiestrogenic effect of Clomid is lower than those found in Proviron, Nolvadex, and Teslac it is mainly taken as a testosterone stimulant. Clomid is a medica-tion that promotes the production of the body's own stimulating hormone, gonadotropin, which in turn increases the testosterone level. It is, for example, administered to women as a so-called antiestrogen to trigger ovulation ("ovulation stimulator").

Side effects of Clomid are very rare if reasonable dosages are taken. Possible side effects are climacteric hot flashes and occasional visual disturbances which can manifest themselves in blurred vision, giv-ing flickering or flashing. Should visual disturbances occur, the manufacturer recommends discontinuing Clomid treatment. Inad-equate liver functions cannot be excluded; however, they are very unlikely. In women enlargement of the ovaries and abdominal pain can occur since Clomid stimulates the ovaries. When taking Clomid multiple pregnancies are possible as well. As for the dosage, 50-100 mg/day (1 -2 tablets) seems to be sufficient. The tablets are usually taken with fluids after meals. If several tablets are taken it is recom-mended that they be administered in equal doses distributed through-out the day. The duration of intake has been rummored to not be taken for longer thatn 10-14 days. This is incorrect. Clinical studies with male patients have shown clomid to be used for up to a year or longer. Most athletes begin with 100 mg/day, taking one 5 0 mg tablet ev-ery morning and evening after meals. After the fifth day the dosage is often reduced to only one 50 mg tablet per day It is normally not necessary to take the compound for more than ten days in order to increase the endogenous testosterone production. Clomid is relatively expensive. A package with 10 tablets costs approx. $35 - 45 on the black market.

[fragmaster3sum]

TweetIf the thought on clomid is to return the body back ot normal production of test as soon as possible ,so there is no big crash or time when the body is without natural test, in the amount that is needed to sustain and maintain its growth...would it not just be as wise to tapper of the cycle and gradually ween yourself of the injected test until your body has recovered and brought its own production levels back to normal?

[ironman]

TweetI for one have done cycles with and without clomid and nolva. Results: without clomid I had serious end of cycle crash. without nolva I ended up with gyno. Now that I am wiser...I use nolva to keep gyno in check and it is working great. I also use clomid post cycle and am back to normal within 3-4 weeks and keep 80% of my gains. IMO clomid is worth using and nolva is most deffinitely worth having around. You don't want to end up like me, I was told back in the day that nolva wasn't needed and clomid did not help...just cycle down gradually and you'll be fine...Ya Right!

[goliath.jr]

Tweet

Originally posted by rado
although I've never taken any anti's and have read numerous articles on this and others, i don't buy it....


Clomid is not an anabolic/androgenic steroid. Since it is a synthetic estrogen it belongs, however, to the group of sex hormones. In school medicine Clomid is normally used to trigger ovulation. Clomid also has a strong influence on the hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis. It stimulates the hypo-physis to release more gonadotropin so that a faster and higher re-lease of FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hor-mone) occurs. This results in an elevated endogenous (body's own) testosterone level. Clomid is especially effective when the body's own testosterone production, due to the intake of anabolic/androgenic steroids, is suppressed. In most cases Clomid can normalize the tes-tosterone level and the spermatogenesis (sperm development) within 10- 14 days. For this reason Clomid is primarily taken after steroids are discontinued. At this time it is extremely important to bring the testosterone production to a normal level as quickly as possible so that the loss of strength and muscle mass is minimized. Even better results can be achieved if Clomid is combined with HCG or when Clomid is used after the intake of HCG.

Paradoxically, although Clomid is a synthetic estrogen it also works as an antiestrogen. The reason is that Clomid has only a very low estrogenic effect and thus the stronger estrogens which, for example, form during the aromatization of steroids, are blocked at the recep-tors. These would include those that develop during the aromatiz-ing of steroids. This does not prevent the steroids from aromatizing but the increased estrogen is mostly deactivated since it cannot at-tach to the receptors. The increased water retention and the possible signs of feminization can thus be reduced or even completely avoided. Since the antiestrogenic effect of Clomid is lower than those found in Proviron, Nolvadex, and Teslac it is mainly taken as a testosterone stimulant. Clomid is a medica-tion that promotes the production of the body's own stimulating hormone, gonadotropin, which in turn increases the testosterone level. It is, for example, administered to women as a so-called antiestrogen to trigger ovulation ("ovulation stimulator").

Side effects of Clomid are very rare if reasonable dosages are taken. Possible side effects are climacteric hot flashes and occasional visual disturbances which can manifest themselves in blurred vision, giv-ing flickering or flashing. Should visual disturbances occur, the manufacturer recommends discontinuing Clomid treatment. Inad-equate liver functions cannot be excluded; however, they are very unlikely. In women enlargement of the ovaries and abdominal pain can occur since Clomid stimulates the ovaries. When taking Clomid multiple pregnancies are possible as well. As for the dosage, 50-100 mg/day (1 -2 tablets) seems to be sufficient. The tablets are usually taken with fluids after meals. If several tablets are taken it is recom-mended that they be administered in equal doses distributed through-out the day. The duration of intake has been rummored to not be taken for longer thatn 10-14 days. This is incorrect. Clinical studies with male patients have shown clomid to be used for up to a year or longer. Most athletes begin with 100 mg/day, taking one 5 0 mg tablet ev-ery morning and evening after meals. After the fifth day the dosage is often reduced to only one 50 mg tablet per day It is normally not necessary to take the compound for more than ten days in order to increase the endogenous testosterone production. Clomid is relatively expensive. A package with 10 tablets costs approx. $35 - 45 on the black market.

where did you get this info, rado?

[iamcdn]

Tweet

Originally posted by goliath.jr
where did you get this info, rado?

he got it from anabolic review:
https://www.anabolicreview.com/drugprof.php#

[tony_canuck]

Tweeti've used both clomid and nolva post-cycle, and I've found that my last post-cycle I just used nolva, and I didn't have the acne, which I usually get with clomid, and I didn't lose much mass at all, and was functioning back to normal in a matter of weeks. Overall, I felt nolva alone post cycle was sufficient and i was very happy with the results.

[jstrong20]

Tweet

Originally posted by fragmaster3sum
If the thought on clomid is to return the body back ot normal production of test as soon as possible ,so there is no big crash or time when the body is without natural test, in the amount that is needed to sustain and maintain its growth...would it not just be as wise to tapper of the cycle and gradually ween yourself of the injected test until your body has recovered and brought its own production levels back to normal?

No because your body will not start to make more test until it hits levels lower than your natural test which is extremley low compared to even a mild steroid cycle. So doing that just prolongs recovery. The best thing is to use suspsension or prop at the end to make sure levels are optimal the whole cycle and clear all drugs as quick as possible. The quicker the drugs are out the quicker you can start to recover.

[DiamondBling]

TweetI'll stand by Clomid..........