Fina + Deca?

[DerCribben]

A couple of days ago someone posted that it isn't a good idea to mix Deca and Fina because you don't want to learn the hard way if you will "react badly" to it.

Now I've done some research and found that all of the profile sites I see only tend to tell you what goes together rather than what doesn't go together.

Can anybody tell me what the adverse effects of this mix are and since the guy said that you dont want to find out the hard way that you will have a bad reaction. I have to assume that some people don't have this reaction. In those people does this combination compliment each other well and why?

I realze that this is a long question but if one of the more experienced vets could try and attack all of the points here I would appreciate it greatly.

[Mike P.T.]

They are talking about how it shuts you down and also the chances of getting gyno progesterone related-wise. It all depends on the individual though. Some people are more sensitive to the side effects while others are not at all. Doseages as well determine if you will get bad sides or not as well as length of cycle. Again though it's an individual thing and the only way you will ever know if you are sensitive is if you try it. Start off low of course to assess tolerance. No need to ever start off high anyway which seems to be the mentality with most individuals.

[Tinfish]

Fina + Deca = bye bye peepee

[DerCribben]

Originally posted by Mike P.T.
They are talking about how it shuts you down and also the chances of getting gyno progesterone related-wise. It all depends on the individual though. Some people are more sensitive to the side effects while others are not at all. Doseages as well determine if you will get bad sides or not as well as length of cycle. Again though it's an individual thing and the only way you will ever know if you are sensitive is if you try it. Start off low of course to assess tolerance. No need to ever start off high anyway which seems to be the mentality with most individuals.

Would using Nolvadex while you are on and a decent bridge to come off with handle these concerns?

[DerCribben]

Originally posted by Tinfish
Fina + Deca = bye bye peepee

Can you throw test in to the mix (damn that's a lot of gear) to bring back the peepee?

[Mike P.T.]

Originally posted by DerCribben
Would using Nolvadex while you are on and a decent bridge to come off with handle these concerns?

Yeah forgot to mention the chances of deca and fina dick which again though is individual but thx for reminding me tinfish. Anyway nolvadex is an anti-estrogen and will do little to keep these side effects away if you are progesterone sensitive. I do feel however that is can help to some degree in a sense that it will block your own natural estrogen from doing it's negative effects so that taking the extra progesterone-like compounds may not effect you as much or at all. Just a little idea of mine. Also, when you come off I like the idea of being OFF. Bridging is not being off it's just going on a lower dose of steroids is all it is.

[buyb12]

nolva doesn't help with progesteron....I wouldn't run them together .........just isn't smart.....run one or the other

[Lmg2701]

fina + deca + prone to hairloss = 1 bald son of a *****

[rado]

Originally posted by Lmg2701
fina + deca + prone to hairloss = 1 bald son of a *****

another good way to look at it

[DerCribben]

Originally posted by Lmg2701
fina + deca + prone to hairloss = 1 bald son of a *****

Say no more!!!

[DerCribben]

How long after I stop Deca should I wait to start Fina? Could I just switch?

[BullFX]

Originally posted by Lmg2701
fina + deca + prone to hairloss = 1 bald son of a *****

LOL true

[prolangtum]

Originally posted by buyb12
nolva doesn't help with progesteron....I wouldn't run them together .........just isn't smart.....run one or the other

or will it............................

Nandi12:

Progestins & Gyno
Before you decide that blocking progesterone is the solution to gyno, consider a few things. There is not one case of progesterone induced gyno in the medical literature EXCEPT in those cases where strong synthetic progestins, like medroxyprogesterone, were administered. In these cases the gyno is due to suppression of LH and testosterone by the progestin, NOT by a direct effect on breast tissue. On a cycle your LH is already suppressed by the AAS anyway.

Breasts have two components: alveoli and ducts. The alveoli are what secrete milk; they drain into ducts. Gynecomastia is the result of ductal hyperplasia, not alveolar hyperplasia. Estrogen stimulates the ductal tissue, while progesterone stimulates the alveoli. Alveolar hyperplasia does not contribute to gyno. If you want to read more on breast development, I suggest visiting this site:

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm

In various tissues throughout the body, including cultured neoplastic breast tissue, progestins downregulate the estrogen receptor (1). Progesterone receptor blockers like RU-486 upregulate the estrogen receptor (1). This is consistent with the fact that RU-486 CAUSES gyno in patients in whom it is used to treat Cushing's disease and meningiomas (2).

Progestins are also anti-estrogenic in that they induce the enzyme 17-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, which catalyzes the oxidation of estradiol to the less potent estrone. Progestins also induce estrogen sulfotransferase, the enzyme which catalyzes the sulfation and inactivation of estrogens.

So do progestins contribute to gyno, and if yes, how so? If you visit the link above you will see that progestins increase IGF-1 levels. As that article indicated, IGF-1 is essential to the the development of mammary tissue. This is also how it is believed that progestins in HRT or oral contraceptives contribute to breast cancer: by increasing IGF-1 levels. But as bodybuilders we are always trying to maximize IGF-1. Hence the futility of trying to lower IGF-1 by blocking progestins. The other anabolics we use will elevate (hopefully) IGF-1, while blocking the progesterone receptor will only increase the levels and activity of estrogen by the mechanisms outlined above.

Two drugs have shown the greatest efficacy in treating gyno: Nolvadex, and Raloxifene, another SERM. Nolvadex has the longest track record, but a recent trial with Raloxifene showed it to be superior to Nolvadex. With these drugs you attack the problem at its source: the estrogen receptor. You get the added benefit of lowering IGF-1. Not a good thing for making gains, but important for treating gyno.

(1) Int J Biol Markers 1995 Jan-Mar;10(1):47-54
Progesterone agonists and antagonists induce down- and up-regulation of estrogen receptors and estrogen inducible genes in human breast cancer cell lines.

(2) J Neurosurg 1991 Jun;74(6):861-6
Treatment of unresectable meningiomas with the antiprogesterone agent mifepristone.
Grunberg SM, Weiss MH, Spitz IM, Ahmadi J, Sadun A, Russell CA, Lucci L, Stevenson LL.
Department of Neurosurgery, University of Southern California School of Medicine, Los Angeles.

[Grappler]

[i]Originally posted by Lmg2701
1 bald son of a ***** [/B]

I resemble that remark. LOL

[DerCribben]

Ok, I just looked at the Tren/Fina section of the steroid profiles part of this site and it suggests using Deca and Fina together. I thought I had heard this before somewhere. Whats the deal are they good together or bad?