Clen Forever!?!?!?!

[Josh]

TweetWell maybe not lol but this is from animals board i wanted to get some opinions....
Clenbuterol is used for asthma is most countries of the world except for this stupid one. Now, if there truly was a beta 2 downgrade then clenbuterol and all other asthma medicines would stop working! This DOES NOT happen. Are new beta 2's developed so much faster in the lungs
compared to every other cell in the body? Not sure, but I doubt it and read on.
The self proclaimed 'gurus' tell you to take t3 after 2 3 weeks on clenbuterol. Huh? T3 allows you to create more beta 2's? T3 does many things, but this is not one of them as far as I know. If it did, then just upping your t3 dose would allow the clen to work forever, but even it stops working after t3 supplementation. You know, has anyone ever even seen a study that says, We gave the
patients (rats or humans) clenbuterol for x amount of time and when when we chopped up their cells and checked them for beta 2 receptors there weren't any!' I never have and this appears to be one of those 'I'll try to explain it by pulling bullshit out of my ass' explanations and see how many will fall for it. Even if there may be ONE study on this it still would be contradictory to the
long term use of clenbuterol and asmtha medications.
Furthermore, we KNOW that clenbuterol affects thyroid levels with a t3 decrease. What other condition has these symptoms? DIETING AND DNP use. But why? Because the osmotic pressure across the surface of the liver cells is being changed as the glycogen of the liver is used up and
this is what stops or alters conversion of t4 t3. Partly as does a binding protein and heat.
So what does that have to do with taurine and clenbuterol. Well, aside from the fact that taurine has a myriad of uses and has been recommended for use while on DNP for this very reason
there is a recent study on clen and taurine:
Effect of treatment with beta agonists on tissue and urinary taurine levels in rats. Mechanism and implications for protection.
Author
Waterfield CJ; Carvalho F; Timbrell JA
Address
Department of Toxicology, School of Pharmacy, London, United Kingdom.
Source
Adv Exp Med Biol, 403():233 45 1996
Abstract
Administration of clenbuterol to rats in the drinking water over a four day period increased incorporation of [3H]leucine into muscle protein but did not result in an increase in body or muscle weight. However, both urinary and liver taurine were significantly reduced at the highest dose of clenbuterol (2 mg.kg 1.day 1). Salbutamol also reduced urinary levels of taurine in both rats and humans. The reduction in the body pool of taurine caused by beta agonists may be of
concern as taurine has been shown to have protective properties.
BingO! Taurine also regulates the amount of water in the cell as well as Mg and Ca transfers and affects the transfer of metabolic products out of the cell such as free radicals. In the use of DNP you have an overload of free radicals. So if your liver is losing it's taurine it is having its osmotic pressure changed across the surface of the cell just like glycogen depletion! T4 t3 conversion will stop!
Furthermore, as I have stated, you take Mg, Ca, AND TAURINE for muscle cramps for this very reason! Taurine is being depleted from EVERY cell while on clenbuterol and so you cramp.
Here is another study to prove that:
Painful muscle cramps in liver cirrhosis and effects of oral taurine administration
Author
Yamamoto S; Ohmoto K; Ideguchi S; Yamamoto R; Mitsui Y; Shimabara M; Iguchi Y; Ohumi T; Takatori K
Address
Division of Gastroenterology (I), Kawasaki Medical School.
Source
Nippon Shokakibyo Gakkai Zasshi, 91(7):1205 9 1994 Jul
Abstract
We administered 3 g of taurine orally for four weeks to 35 patients suffering from liver cirrhosis with repeated muscle cramp (MC). Improvement of MC was noted in 22 cases (62.9%). We also determined the plasma taurine concentration in eight cases of liver cirrhosis with MC. The plasma taurine concentration before ingestion was 54.1 +/ 20.7 nmol/ml, whereas that of four weeks after ingestion was 125.1 +/ 59.1 nmol/ml, which was significantly elevated by 2.3 fold. As the concentration increased, the frequency of MC decreased, suggesting the good correlation between ingestion and the decrease in frequency of MC. In liver cirrhosis without MC the plasma taurine concentration was 81.0 +/ 16.7 nmol/ml, which was significantly higher than in liver cirrhosis
with MC. In a few cases with taurine ingestion, serial plasma taurine concentrations were detected. Plasma taurine reached the peak value during the first week of ingestion and plasma taurine levels were maintained 2 5 fold higher during ingestion.
So, what have we learned?
Taurine is the cause of cramps.
Taurine is most likely the cause of clenbuterol's downgrade.
I have worked with people who had cramps and tried supplementing potassium with little benefits. Not to say that it doesn't work, but YOU could be treating SYMPTOMS instead of the cause. Flow of taurine out of the cell and its water will also take the others with it (potassium).
Additionally, Taurine is not incorporated into proteins but remains free in the tissues, especially
muscle and nerve tissues. Cramping is not only a function of muscle cells, but the study above showed that it may also be a function of nerve cells. When they lose their equilibrium they are what cramps and THIS is why you cramp on STUPID SCAM CREATINE. Creatine goes into the muscle and while your muscles hold onto more water the ratio in nerve cells will still change (lower) with exercise and you get cramps.
Again, I'm not saying that potassium won't work, but that is symptom and not a cause.
Taurine
Taurine, a sulfur containing amino acid derived from the amino acid cystine, is a component of the bile salts produced in the liver (it was first isolated from ox bile). It is important for proper digestion of fats and absorption of fat soluble vitamins. But only a fraction of available taurine is used to make bile salts,2 while an enormous amount floats freely inside cells.
Taurine is not incorporated into proteins but remains free in the tissues, especially muscle and nerve tissues. It has a number of therapeutic uses including acting as a membrane stabilizer and reducing arrhythmias of the heart. Taurine also enhances the contractile strength of heart muscle (called a positive inotropic effect)3, and thus can help treat heart failure which is a decreased ability of the heart to pump out all the blood that flows into it. When the heart is failing, the blood backs up and forces fluid out into the tissues (edema) by osmosis. This leads to either swelling of the legs or fluid in the lungs and shortness of breath, depending on which part of the heart is more involved.
In a 1984 animal study, taurine protected against heart failure, reducing mortality by 80 percent in the taurine treated group with no diminishment of cardiac function.4 In a later animal study in 1988, taurine was shown to lower blood pressure.5 My own clinical experience confirms some of these effects of taurine, and I commonly give it to patients with heart failure and high blood pressure.
Taurine is also beneficial for the eyes enhancing the rods and cones (the pigmented epithelial cells in the retina of the eye that serve as visual receptor cells). The greatest visual acuity occurs in the macular area of the retina near where the optic nerve enters from the back of the eye. With aging, the macula commonly degenerates as rods and cones die, often causing blindness. What causes the degeneration is not clear, but it is more common in diabetics and may be the result of free radical damage from ultraviolet light or oxygen exposure.6
A review of animal studies reveals that taurine appears to protect the eyes from macular degeneration.7 In one 1975 research report, a diet deficient in taurine was associated with retinal degeneration in cats.8 Thus, taurine can be part of a comprehensive approach to macular degeneration that also includes antioxidant nutrients, minerals, flavonoids, botanicals and chelation therapy (an intravenous therapy done in a doctor's office).
Because taurine is a neuroinhibitory amino acid, it may help treat seizure disorders. Some animal studies have suggested a role for taurine in controlling seizures, but the results are not consistent. In 1977, a cat with chronic epileptic seizures was successfully treated with taurine both orally and intravenously.9 Other studies have also suggested taurine's supportive role for seizures, but some clinical trials have shown limited benefits or have not confirmed this effect of taurine. I have used
taurine, in combination with magnesium and other nutrients, in my seizure patients with some success. It seems to enhance the effects of some of their seizure medications so they can take a lower dose.
REFERENCES
1. Linder, M., Ed. Nutritional Biochemistry and Metabolism, 2nd edition, Elsevier Scientific Publishing,
1991.
2. Chesney R.W. "Taurine: Its biological role and clinical implications," Adv Pediatr 32: 1 42, 1985.
3. Pisarenko, O.I. "Mechanisms of myocardial protection by amino acids: Facts and hypotheses," Clin Exp
Pharmacol Physiol 23(8): 627 33, August, 1996.
4. Azuma, J., et al. "Beneficial effect of taurine on congestive heart failure induced by chronic aortic
regurgitation in rabbits," Res Commun Chem Pathol Pharmacol 45(2): 261 70, August, 1984.
5. Fujita, T., Sato, Y. "Hypotensive effect of taurine. Possible involvement of the sympathetic nervous system
and endogenous opiates," J Clin Invest 82(3): 993 97. September 1988.
6. Gaby, A.R., Wright, J.V. "Nutritional factors in degenerative eye disorders: Cataract and macular
degeneration," J Adv Med 6(1): 27 4O, Spring 1993.
7. Chesney, R.W. op. cit.
8. Hayes, K.C., Carey, R.E., et al. "Retinal degeneration associated with taurine deficiency in the cat,"
Science l88(4191): 949 51, May 30, 1975.
9. van Gelder, N.M., Koyama, I., et al. "Taurine treatment of spontaneous chronic epilepsy in a cat,"
Epilepsia 18(1): 45 54, March, 1977.
10. Pola, P., et al. "Statistical evaluation of long term L carnitine therapy in hyperlipoproteinaemias," Drugs
Exptl Clin Res 9: 925 34, 1983.
11. Orlando, G., Rusconi, C. "Oral L carnitine in the treatment of chronic cardiac ischaemia in elderly
patients," Clin Trials J 23: 338 44, 1986.
12. Singh, R.B., Niaz, M.A., et al. "A randomised, double blind, placebo controlled trial of L carnitine in
suspected acute myocardial infarction," Postgrad Med J 72(843): 45 50, January 1996.
13. Kobayashi, A., Watanabe, H., et al. "Effects of L carnitine and palmitoylcarnitine on membrane fluidity of
human erythrocytes," Biochim Biophys Acta 986(1): 83 8. Nov. 17, 1989.
14. Ghidini, O., Azzurro, M., et al. "Evaluation of the therapeutic efficacy of L carnitine in congestive heart
failure," Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther Toxicol 26(4): 217 20, April l988.
15. Dragan, I.G., Vasiliu A., et al. "Studies concerning chronic and acute effects of L carnitina in elite
athletes" Physiologie 26(2): 111 29, April June, 1989.
Taurine is the most abundant free amino acid in the brain, heart, and nervous system, and it plays a role in the normal functioning of the brain, heart, gallbladder, eyes, and vascular system. It facilitates the passage of sodium, potassium, and, possibly, calcium and magnesium, ions into and
out of cells, and electrically stabalizes cell membranes. It modulates the activity the activity of cAMP, which activates important enzymes in heary muscle, and contributes to the muscle's contractibility. Taurine is an important component of bile acids which aid in the absorption of fat soluble vitamins. It aids the body's chemistry by detoxifying harmful chemicals. Dietary taurine stimulates the formation of taurocholate, a substance which increases cholesterol secretion in the bile and also improves fat metabolism in the liver. Taurine offers a wide range of nutritional support to many organ systems throughout the body; as a supplement it is most notable known for
its heart muscle support.

[prolangtum]

TweetThats why you use ketofein. I never have advocated adding t3 to clen. Each of my succesive clen cycles i needed more and more to see an affect, im not going to gover over 240mcg a day, as was my last cycle, so ill stick to ECA or EYCA.

[Josh]

Tweetnah in a different post he was saying the ketofin theory was bullshit and you just need taurine and then you can run it longer with out beta 2 downregulation. Which kinda makes sense because we run ECA the 2 off weeks which is a beta 2 also and when clen is used as an asthma med it continues to work well beyond 2 weeks...
Animal-
"Ok. First of all, the advice on ketotifen was given/written and then extolled as prophecy by..... THE ASS FAMILY! Anything they say is specious at best and most likely outright fraud.
Fact is they are dead fucking wrong on how beta's are downregulated. You see, it's not the BETAS that are so much downregulated as the enormous UPREGULATION of alphas! Alphas grab what would activate the betas and make it useless and THAT is why you would use something like yohimbine!
Too bad that fuck is dead so I can't go kick him in the balls which I might go do, anyhow!"

[BigD]

TweetSo wait, is this saying that ketofin DOES or DOESN'T make clen work any better? I already had to go up to 240mcg/day of clen my first time for results, I won't go higher, and if keto doesn't help then I'm never using it again. I'll stick to the old, tried and true amphetamines.

[Josh]

Tweetdoesnt but hes also saying clen doesnt downregulate the beta 2's

[BigD]

TweetI've got personal evidence that says otherwise, but what does that matter, we don't take any of this stuff anyway.