Are there any Priests, Pastors, or ordained ministers in here?

[angryoldman]

TweetJust curious. I'm not talking about Eucharistic ministers. I'm talking about ordained, out of school.

[RevTodd]

TweetI am an ordained minister, evangelical stripe, a former Army chaplain and occasional seminary extension professor. Not in full-time vocational ministry right now.

I grew up Catholic but rejected that faith in high school and was an atheist for about 6 years before embracing Christianity in 1989.

[angryoldman]

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I am an ordained minister, evangelical stripe, a former Army chaplain and occasional seminary extension professor. Not in full-time vocational ministry right now.

I grew up Catholic but rejected that faith in high school and was an atheist for about 6 years before embracing Christianity in 1989.

Did you go to school to become a minister?

[T-Man007]

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I am an ordained minister, evangelical stripe, a former Army chaplain and occasional seminary extension professor. Not in full-time vocational ministry right now.

I grew up Catholic but rejected that faith in high school and was an atheist for about 6 years before embracing Christianity in 1989.

Wow bro, what caused you to see the truth? That's a story I would love to hear. Seriously, if you have time. T

[RevTodd]

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Did you go to school to become a minister?

I have two earned Masters Degrees in Theology and Religion from Faith Seminary in the Des Moines, IA area. My undergrad degree is in Political Science and Psychology.

[angryoldman]

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I have two earned Masters Degrees in Theology and Religion from Faith Seminary in the Des Moines, IA area. My undergrad degree is in Political Science and Psychology.

First off, much respect to you sir. I think that's awesome.
So I guess my question is, you have studied for MANY MANY years. You have broken down the Bible, read it over and over again, probably taken Greek and deciphered the Bible page by page, verse by verse. Correct? I KNOW FOR A FACT, you know the Bible, as you've made it a career to study it.
What I want to know is, does it bother you that people read the Bible maybe once in their or twice in their entire life, and think they know what it means word for word? Does it bother you that these self proclaimed "Bible Thumpers" think they know more than the average person?
If I read a medical journal once, that doesn't make me a Doctor, does it? I mean, heck, I read a good 12 page article about Meningitis. I think I have enough knowlege to diagnose and treat meningitis now, right?
I am just curious to know an expert opinion on this. As I do consider you an expert since you've obviously taken over 10 years of Theology and Religion.

[RevTodd]

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Wow bro, what caused you to see the truth? That's a story I would love to hear. Seriously, if you have time. T

Since I just answered a similar question for my good friend Mr. Barbaccio on MM forum, I will copy that post here. At least gives you a bit of a feel for where I've come from...

BTW, thanks for asking!


quote:
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Originally posted by Barbaccio:
I'll admit that I don't, as you put it, always live as my philosophy dictates nor do I live as my ?spirituality? dictates. Philosophically speaking, I'm agnostic. However, I FEEL that there is no god. And yes, I agree that this is as much of a "faith" as your belief. But I find it very facinating that you can understand the idea of agnosticsim yet still accept Christianity. It seems to me the very understanding of agnosticism would to (I tried to think of a differnet way to say this and it is NOT meant as an insult) the intelligent man not being able to accept faith of belief or non-belief. I guess what I'm saying at it's most basic level is, how can you possibly believe as deeply as you do, even knowing as you do, that your faith COULD be wrong?
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This is probably the best question you have ever asked me… It is one that many of my undergrad college professors asked as well. “How can you be so obviously intelligent, yet still be a Christian?” They couldn’t believe it either. Well, I’ll take a stab at giving you the Cliff’s Notes version.

On one level, I CHOOSE to believe, even as you choose not to believe. What I react to is when people say belief in God is for the weak-minded and non-belief is the only option for the intelligent.

I don’t say this for self-promotion, but I am somewhat intelligent (2 Masters degrees, Summa Cum Laude, MENSA Society member, etc.), and I was also intelligent when I was an atheist. The question is not intelligence, but the choice you make – when you have enough information to make an intelligent choice.

You ask me why I am not an agnostic. Let’s take the spiritual dimension out of it for a moment… I am not an agnostic because I consider it (like your comment above, not meant to be offensive) to be an intellectually dishonest fallback position. An agnostic, in my view, is just an atheist who lacks conviction. This is why I asked you if the only evidence you would accept for God’s existence was materialistic. I was trying to point out to you that you may ‘call’ yourself an agnostic, but in your epistemology you are essentially a materialist, which to me is the same as an atheist. You’d have to broaden the kind of evidence you’d be willing to accept in order to even allow the possibility of a God, since God is, by definition, spirit.

So if I want to be intellectually honest with myself, I am left with choosing between atheism and theism. As I explained to you before, atheism is self-refuting because it is restricts all means of knowing to materialism, but its own primary knowledge claim can only be asserted metaphysically. So since atheism falls by its own criterion, and agnosticism is an intellectual shell-game, I am left with theism – or at least some kind of metaphysical system, and theism makes the most sense to me out of the alternatives.

Now of course, nobody chooses their world view TOTALLY based on reason… This is what torks me off so much when non-theists claim that they do. A lot of things come into play. Natural proclivities, upbringing, experiences, wants, likes, dislikes, behavior choices, etc, etc. All these things lead to assumptions and prejudices that influence what we will choose to believe.

A big part of my rejection of the Roman Catholicism of my family was the hypocrisy I witnessed, and my own desire to behave apart from the strictures of church teaching. I was down with the Satanic bible’s commandment to, “Do What Thou Wilt.” That was MY kind of religion, man, because it fit how I wanted to live. Therefore, I adopted a set of philosophical assumptions that would accomodate me (It didn't happen quite this simply, but that's what it all boils down to).

Somewhere along the line, around the late 1980’s I met some people who convinced me that enlightened self-interest was a trap, that a lot of the basic philosophical and scientific assumptions I held were highly suspect, and that life without meaning was not really worth living (I am greatly condensing the story, here). This did not lead me to embrace God, but it did open my formerly closed mind to hear more.

Loooong story short… I eventually gave the first fair hearing of my life to the claims of Christianity, and (warning, here is where it gets metaphysical) the Holy Spirit acted on my heart, mind and will to press the truth I had learned into my soul. I received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in 1989.

And oh… by the way… If my faith could not possibly be wrong (according to human perceptions) then it would not be FAITH, would it?

Don’t know if this clears anything up for you, but this is basically how I came to where I am.

Peace,
RevTodd

[FUZO]

TweetAOM REPENT MUTHER PHUGER

[angryoldman]

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AOM REPENT MUTHER PHUGER

Seriously. I respect Reverend Todd. I never met the man, but he's taken over 10 years of Theology and religion. This is his life. I want to know what he thinks of my above question!
I know I need to repent. Everyone needs to repent. Even you, ya Michael Bolton, George Michael looking muther phuquer

[T-Man007]

TweetRevTodd,

Awesome story, even if it the Reader Digest version. Thank you for sharing. I may not be in MENSA but I do have an IQ of 144 and I excelled in school (even if it was HS) and I've had people who know me well say the same thing 'how can you be so smart and believe in something you can't prove'. Which cracks me up to no end because they believe in the big bang theory, the theory of evolution and all kinds of other non-proven theories. I ask them what the difference is in believing in a theory created by man and believing in the eyewitness accounts of men who were inspired by God to write what they saw. They say the same things over and over 'well, how do you know it wasn't changed?'. Which I answer this 'if one truely believes God to be omniscient, omnipotent and transcendent, then the Bible is exaclty as God intended for it to be.' I then respond with "If God knows everything, has power over everything and is in all places at the same time, don't you think if a man was going to change the Bible from what he wanted he would make sure that man never got the chance?" To assume that man could alter God's word is to assume that man has more control than God. God WILL will always be God's will and man will never be able to change that, ever.

Anyways, thanks again for sharing brother!

[angryoldman]

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RevTodd,

but I do have an IQ of 144

That's all? If you measured a 144, you should be be making $175,000 a year creating computer programs to make appraisals easier. Not doing appraisals themselves.

[RevTodd]

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First off, much respect to you sir. I think that's awesome.

Thank you for saying so.

So I guess my question is, you have studied for MANY MANY years. You have broken down the Bible, read it over and over again, probably taken Greek and deciphered the Bible page by page, verse by verse. Correct? I KNOW FOR A FACT, you know the Bible, as you've made it a career to study it.

Just for the record, my seminary training lasted a little over 3 years, but yes I have been a student of the scriptures for many years, 15 to be exact.

What I want to know is, does it bother you that people read the Bible maybe once in their or twice in their entire life, and think they know what it means word for word? Does it bother you that these self proclaimed "Bible Thumpers" think they know more than the average person?
If I read a medical journal once, that doesn't make me a Doctor, does it? I mean, heck, I read a good 12 page article about Meningitis. I think I have enough knowlege to diagnose and treat meningitis now, right?

First, “Bible Thumper” is a derogatory term ascribed usually to born-again fundamentalist and evangelical types by their detractors both within and without “Christendom.” So, I guess I wouldn't consider them 'self-proclaimed,' except maybe for a good-natured, tongue-in-cheek concession to the insult.

Second, who are these people to whom you refer that read the Bible once or twice in their entire lives, but yet represent themselves as learned biblical scholars or Seminary professors (in keeping with your above analogies)?

Or are you asking me if I’m offended that the ‘unschooled’ layperson reads his Bible and has the audacity to think he can know what it means?

If this is your question, then the answer, in principle, is no. It does not offend me at all. I believe the Bible is an open book that can be studied and its truths apprehended by anyone with a heart to believe and an ear to hear. But understanding scripture (since it is spiritual) does require spiritual quickening within the individual before he/she can truly internalize its truths.

Does this mean that anyone at any level grasps everything in the Bible equally? Well, no. But I can tell you that I’ve encountered Godly laypeople who know their Bibles more thoroughly, more accurately, and who live by them more consistently than men who’ve spent years on end cloistered in the hallowed halls of religious colleges and seminaries.

To concede a bit on your point, however, I have also met some Christians on the other end of the spectrum who embody the phrase, “knows enough to be dangerous.” These I have made it my mission to correct, when appropriate, and to pray for always.

I am just curious to know an expert opinion on this. As I do consider you an expert since you've obviously taken over 10 years of Theology and Religion.

Well I don't know about the term, 'expert'... But I'm glad to help with honest questions when I can.

[angryoldman]

TweetI appreciate your answer and your honesty. Yes, I was asking if you were offended by an unschooled person giving their interpretation of the scriptures. I'm sure in your schooling and training you've been instructed that the Bible can be deciphered in many ways. Does it bother you when people read a verse or a passage in the Bible, and say "My way is the only way to see this passage. What you see in the passage and decipher is wrong!!!!"
I'm sure you've studied old testament as well, and read that Exodus 21:7 you may sell your sister into slavery.
Exodus 35:2, if you work on Sundays, you should be put to death. Etc.... These are things that are printed in the Bible, and yet people still argue, "Well, that's not what the Lord meant...."
I guess what I'm asking is, why do people only see what they want to see in the Bible, and can sometimes be so stubborn to different interpretations? I see some of these people here in the Religious forums, and it just boggles my mind at some of the comments. So far, in every post of yours I've read, I've seen no attacks or flaming. Just honest answers to the fact. Again, I appreciate that. Especially since Religion is made to be such a taboo subject in todays society.

[kite]

TweetThis is why I have MAD RESPECT for RevTodd, he's a class act and I knew most of you cats would appreciate him over here!

[angryoldman]

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This is why I have MAD RESPECT for RevTodd, he's a class act and I knew most of you cats would appreciate him over here!

Is RevTodd a racist from Georgia too? He seems like a racist kind of guy so far