Facts and Studies about Nolva and its use

[Juice Authority]

TweetIs Nolvadex is better than clomid post-cycle to recover HTPA?

https://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/ma...ID=6&pageID=72

https://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/ma...ID=7&pageID=77

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid.

Fertil Steril 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7 Related Articles, Links


Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.

This study shows that clomid is better recover HTPA.

Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro.

Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS.

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

PMID: 6781360 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Here's a study showing nolva lowers femara levels in the system when combined.

Impact of tamoxifen on the pharmacokinetics and endocrine effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole in postmenopausal women with breast cancer.

Dowsett M, Pfister C, Johnston SR, Miles DW, Houston SJ, Verbeek JA, Gundacker H, Sioufi A, Smith IE.

Department of Biochemistry, Royal Marsden Hospital, London, United Kingdom.

This study examined whether the addition of tamoxifen to the treatment regimen of patients with advanced breast cancer being treated with the aromatase inhibitor letrozole led to any pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic interaction. Twelve of 17 patients completed the core period of the trial in which 2.5 mg/day letrozole was administered alone for 6 weeks and in combination with 20 mg/day tamoxifen for the subsequent 6 weeks. Patients responding to treatment continued on the combination until progression of disease or any other reason for discontinuation. Plasma levels of letrozole were measured at the end of the 6-week periods of treatment with letrozole alone and the combination and once more between 4 and 8 months on combination therapy. No further measurements were done thereafter. Hormone levels were measured at 2-week intervals throughout the core period. Marked suppression of estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate occurred with letrozole treatment, and this was not significantly affected by the addition of tamoxifen. However, plasma levels of letrozole were reduced by a mean 37.6% during combination therapy (P<0.0001), and this reduction persisted after 4-8 months of combination therapy. Letrozole is the first drug to be described in which this pharmacokinetic interaction occurs with tamoxifen. The mechanism is likely to be a consequence of an induction of letrozole-metabolizing enzymes by tamoxifen but was not further addressed in this study. It is possible that the antitumor efficacy of letrozole may be affected. Thus, sequential therapy may be preferable with these two drugs. It is not known whether tamoxifen interacts with other members of this class of drugs or with other drugs in combination.

The above study shows that Clomid is estrogenic in pituitary which doesn't have a negative effect on LH response to LHRH in vitro, but it does in vivo - check the study 1 I posted.

After several weeks of clomid use the LH response to LHRH was decreased (proving once again that Clomid is estrogenic in pituitary) while it was enhanced with Nolvadex. That's important because estrogen has both a pituitary and a hypothalamic site of action.

From:
https://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/9/3027

"The mechanism proposed for this divergence between spontaneous pulse height and acute pituitary responsiveness to exogenous GnRH was that clomiphene was having tissue-specific mixed agonist/antagonist effects. The authors concluded that clomiphene was acting as an estrogen antagonist at the hypothalamus, resulting in an increase in endogenous GnRH secretion, but as an estrogen agonist at the pituitary, causing decreased responsiveness to exogenous GnRH"

..."This concept that E2 is a more potent suppressor of LH secretion than is T is supported by studies in both prepubertal boys (42, 43) and adult males (1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 41, 44), indicating that, on a molar basis, the steroid dose required to suppress gonadotropin secretion is approximately 200-fold less for E2 than for T..."

..."From these clinical investigative studies on the impact of aromatase inhibition in NL and GnRH-deficient men, employing frequent blood sampling combined with administration of a GnRH antagonist, we conclude that, in the human male, estrogen has dual sites of negative feedback, acting at the hypothalamus to decrease GnRH pulse frequency and at the pituitary to decrease pituitary responsiveness to GnRH..."

How and when to use Nolva:

I would also suggest running Nolvadex during your cycle to prevent the effects of estrogen in the body. It can aid in preventing edema, gyno, and female pattern fat distribution, all of which might occur when your estrogen levels are too high.

To prevent estrogenic side effects normally 10-20 mg/day are sufficient, a dosage which also keeps low the risk of reducing the effect of simultaneously-taken AS. Nolva does NOT inhibit gains. Arimidex, it is an anti-e. It stops aromatation. Problem is, it will mess up your cholesterol levels.

Arimidex = To Prevent Estrogen Creation

Nolvadex = To Stop Estrogen from Binding

Always start with Arimidex, but have nolvadex on hand.

Nolvadex can and will act as a psuedo-estrogen. Arimidex will keep your aromatose activity down to a minimum. Nolva can take the place for estrogenic activities for cholesterol. Which is good!

You can also wait until you have any signs of gyno and then take Nolvadex 20mg's in the morning and 20mg's in the evening for two weeks and continue to take it at 10mg's per day for the remainder of cycle.

Here's an article the summarizes all of the above points and studies:

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.

[TxLonghorn]

TweetClomid is better for post cycle recovery than nolva. Period. However, your best bet would be hcg and clomid, and possibly throwing in nolva as well.

[gearedup]

Tweet

Originally posted by TxLonghorn
Clomid is better for post cycle recovery than nolva. Period. However, your best bet would be hcg and clomid, and possibly throwing in nolva as well.

I totally agree I used HCG first then I used nolvadex, clomid and also threw in liquidex, lol! It worked!

[rado]

Tweetdamn that was a long read, but good one. Maybe I should start using them.

[superchicken]

Tweet

Originally posted by rado
damn that was a long read, but good one. Maybe I should start using them.

what did i just hear??? your joking right? lol

well considering they are cheaper than tribex and work better, yeah..maybe you should