too many sets...

im pretty much a traditional lifter i guess but ive been wondering really how many sets (as a max) would be ok for someone whos not juicin and eats well in a common day? i dont let myself go over 20 sets in a day and right now im on a 4 day split like this:
legs
chest/tri
off
back/calves
arms

i feel like without a 5 day program i cant hit all my muscles enough..i feel like i cant fit enough sets in to thoroughly work some muscles. one of the greatest deficits is my ab work..i feel like i need at least 2 times a week ab training but many times all my sets are already spent up soo i either get like a few sets of abs that dont nearly make me sore the next day or just none at all...3 sets for abs (1 exercise)usually doesnt do shit...6 sets(2 exercises) on the other hand usually gets me damn sore..yeahh i use 3 sets as a standard and maybe thats where im going wrong.
i know im kinda everywhere but im just frusturated!! anyhelp is appreciated!

U're wrong. I do a two day WSB program that hits everything. And I'm putting on a ton of strength thus far. That split isnt even good b/c you do back one day and hit bi's right after the other.. You should have at LEAST 1 day of rest after you do Leg day... I think u're doing way too much vol. For natty BB-er even a dirty BB-er I would go 2 or 3 day split

No shoulders??
20 sets of legs I would be crippled.
I think to much volume also.

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Originally Posted by sombr3ro

im pretty much a traditional lifter i guess but ive been wondering really how many sets (as a max) would be ok for someone whos not juicin and eats well in a common day? i dont let myself go over 20 sets in a day and right now im on a 4 day split like this:
legs
chest/tri
off
back/calves
arms

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I think you are risking overtraining your arms here, your biceps are used ALOT on back day, and then the very next day you are hitting them up again. I think you'd be better with a 3 day split mixing your arms into other days having the bis with back

The only problem with following your back day with arms is that you're not maximizing your potential. You do alot with your bi's on back day, the previous posters are correct...BUT, other than working a "tired" muscle group that was hit the day before, i have no problem with it. I would like to see it the other way around ( heavy bi day before back day) bc then the secondary muscles (biceps) are less of an aid to the primary muscles (back). I also dont know that you need 20 sets of bi work either, that and the previous work with your back is brutal.

It would be nice to have a day of rest after a leg day but its really not needed. as long as you get your 8 hours of sleepand are 16 hrs removed from your workout, your body will be fine.

This is just me but my ab routines and calves are never factored into my working sets, they have always been a seperate workout. You could also have a heavy ab day on your off day.

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Originally Posted by NATE

I would like to see it the other way around ( heavy bi day before back day) bc then the secondary muscles (biceps) are less of an aid to the primary muscles (back).

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This can be achieved with them both on the same day by hitting the bi's first in the day's workout, then doing back excercises after done with bis. This way you can switch it up if you decide to focus more on back than bis do back first since you will be able to go heavier with whatever you choose to do first on bi/back day. Of course if he's on any AAS the 2 days in a row of hitting bis wont be as bad as for me, so I guess it depends alot on how easily overtrained he is.

16 sets tops no matter what for major bodyparts. i don't count throwing in calves or abs as sets in the workout.

12 sets for chest/shoulders/arms

16 sets for legs or back

if you can't get the job done in 12/16 sets...

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Originally Posted by geesler

This can be achieved with them both on the same day by hitting the bi's first in the day's workout, then doing back excercises after done with bis. This way you can switch it up if you decide to focus more on back than bis do back first since you will be able to go heavier with whatever you choose to do first on bi/back day. Of course if he's on any AAS the 2 days in a row of hitting bis wont be as bad as for me, so I guess it depends alot on how easily overtrained he is.

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Another point that i failed to mention is that ( and this is with my clients, not something i practice) when you have a bi day after a back day your back is still fatigued and tired. Movements such as heavy barbell curls (or cheat reps) or E-Z bar culrs can easily hurt your back. I'm not saying this is typical for lifters that know their body and have proper form but it is something to look out for and something i steer clear of with my clients.

many people w/ huge arms dont even do bicep work... I dont do ANY direct bicep work b/c my back exercises hit my Bis already..

Just a personal note- I like fatiguing my bis before hitting the back the majority of time, it feels it lets me concentrate on just using the back for them and lets me hit my bis hard, and just every once in a while doing back first. When doing back I often try to visualize my arms as just hooks off of body and keep them out of the work as much as possible

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Originally Posted by nishnish

16 sets tops no matter what for major bodyparts. i don't count throwing in calves or abs as sets in the workout.

12 sets for chest/shoulders/arms

16 sets for legs or back

if you can't get the job done in 12/16 sets...

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Thats some volume right there, if it works for you use it but I dont think thats optimal for the avg guy.

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Originally Posted by Skarhead

Thats some volume right there, if it works for you use it but I dont think thats optimal for the avg guy.

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i've always responded better to moderate weight/heavier volume... but that's just me.

every now and then i'll take the volume down and increase the weight to shick my system; but 12-16 sets makes me grow like a weed...

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Originally Posted by geesler

Just a personal note- I like fatiguing my bis before hitting the back the majority of time, it feels it lets me concentrate on just using the back for them and lets me hit my bis hard, and just every once in a while doing back first. When doing back I often try to visualize my arms as just hooks off of body and keep them out of the work as much as possible

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thats a good idea and i do the same, not every back/bi workout but i like to mix it in here and there......