using long esters A MUST READ!

too many people dont understand or know how to properly use long esters. This will explain everything and clear up some misconceptions.

********** POSTED BY SKYEFIRE AT SM ***********



This is for the new people and really anyone that is interested. There is a lot of misconceptions about what esters are, do and how they should be used. For the first two questions I have found no better article then this one https://www.mesomorphosis.com/articl...roid-esters.htm Be aware that while there is a lot of truth to saying that “test is test” or that the changing the ester of the hormone doesn’t change it that is NOT entirely true. The properties do change some with the type of ester used. For instance Testosterone Propionate is widely believed (have notice this myself) to cause you to hold less water then an equivalent amount of Testosterone Enanthate, even if the Testosterone Propionate is injected every day and the Testosterone Enanthate twice a week. Another good example is Trenbolone. An experienced body builder might run 100mg every day of the acetate ester as a maximum but will not get away with running 700mg of the enanthate. So obviously the esters do effect how the drug works to some degree.

A couple of things about half-lives that need to be considered for the following discussion. First is that the actually esters themselves do not determine the actually half-life. The actual half-life is determined by the solution as a whole. The type of oil, amount and types of solvents all contribute to the half-life of a product. For instance the half-life of Testosterone Enanthate is said to be 10 days. However, by using a polyhydric alcohol along with benzyl alcohol and a fast absorbing oil I can reduce that to about 8 days. On the other hand I make a solution that has very little benzyl alcohol and a healthy amount of benzyl benzoate with slow absorbing oil I can get 12 days or better. Testosterone base is another good example. Using a polyhydric solution it is absorbed in 12 hours or less, in a slow absorbing solution that can be made as long as 36 hours. That is the difference between injecting 2 to 3 times a day and once a day. So the manufacture (or how you made it) will make up to a 50% difference in what the actual half-life is.

As for how the longer esters should be ran, well that is as always, a matter of debate. This disclaimer if for the rest of the paper if I can call it that: All this is a matter of my opinion and does not constitute medical or any other kind of advice. This is all role-playing anyways. Also while I am on the soapbox please feel free to disagree and debate the information in here BUT PLEASE STATE WHY. By this I mean make an argument on the subject, don’t just state your opinion on the matter. Additionally I like studies and appreciate them but by themselves they do not make an argument. Your interpolation of them does.

First off it would seam that a lot of people are not aware of how to calculate the dosages they are receiving from a long estered steroid. The term “kick in” is often used to describe the build up period of the depot in the body. This build up period is a result of two things, one being the time the actually hormone needs to start working or for the body to react to it. The second is the time and doses needed for the depot to build up to the point ware the amount taken is the same as the amount released from the depot. For the purposes here I am going to say that the steroid “Kicks in” at the point where 75% of your weekly dosage is released to the body from the depot.

The actually calculations are easy. The general form for doing this is M*** = MgD * (1/2)^(D/HL). MgD is milligrams in depot, M*** is milligrams in depot left, D is days, and HL is the half-life in days. If your mathematically inclined you can also do in logs but I am lazy and this is close enough. So say you took a shot of 800mgs Testosterone Cypionate, which has a half life of 12 days, on Monday, by Sunday you would have 800*((.5)^(7/12)) or 534mg left in the depot. 800-534=266mg that you actually got that week from that shot. If you took another 800mg shot on the following Monday you would (504+800) *((.5)^(7/12)) or 870 left in the depot at the end of week two. 1304-870=434 that you actually got to use during week two and so on. As you can see the long esters take quit a bit of time to get to the weekly dosage. Please note that the calculation for week two starts out with D being 8 instead of 7, hence the 504 instead of the 534.

That leads us to the proper way to cycle long esters. I can not count the number of times I have seen people suggest a Testosterone Cypionate with Boldenolone Undecylenate (test cyp/EQ) cycle. The problem is that a lot of people recommending this are saying 8 weeks. In my opinion this just doesn’t cut it. It takes 4 weeks for the Testosterone Cypionate to “kick in” and 6 weeks for the Boldenolone Undecylenate. This means that you would actually have only about 3 to 4 weeks at the intended dosage. That is including the natural ramp down of the esters. The below is the results of a quick spreadsheet I did for this. Sense the Boldenolone Undecylenate is the longer ester that is the one I will be working with. This is for 400mg a week for 8 weeks.

______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot

1 ____400 ______102 ________25.48%
2 ____686 ______175 ________43.68%
3 ____890 ______227 ________56.69%
4 ___1036 ______264 ________65.99%
5 ___1140 ______291 ________72.63%
6 ___1215 ______310 ________77.38%
7 ___1268 ______323 ________80.77%
8 ___1306 ______333 ________83.19%

As you can see you only get above 300mg at week 6. Please note that it take twice as long to ramp up as down so the minimum time it take for the Boldenolone Undecylenate to clear is 3 weeks. Now if we increase the cycle time to 12 weeks thing look a little different.

______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot
9 ____1333 _____340 ________84.92%
10 ___1353 _____345 ________86.16%
11 ___1367 _____348 ________87.05%
12 ___1377 _____351 ________87.68%

Now we have almost 8 weeks at near the intended dosage. If you include week 13:

______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot


13 ___765 ______195________ 48.69%
14 ___570 ______145 ________36.29%
15 ___425 ______108 ________27.04%
16 ___316 _______81 ________20.15%
17 ___236 _______60 ________15.02%
18 ___176 _______45 ________11.19%
19 ___131 _______33 _________8.34%
20 ____98 _______25 _________6.22%

And it might even look better if we ran 16 weeks. Please note that this is the same for any steroid with a half-life of 16.5 days. It does not matter. Swales has also said that

quote:
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when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week
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you should start your PCT. I believe that he means any repressive gear so you would have to include most any gear left in your system if you didn’t finish with testosterone.

The other opinion is to front load the steroid in question.. This is the process of taking a great deal of the steroid during the first week or two in order to avoid having to wait for the build up to occur. As you might guess this is controversial process but it does work. For this example I am going to use the EQ again at the same dosage but this time I am going to front load 1.2 grams of EQ as 300mg ED for 4 days the first week. To make life simple I entered this as a single dose on the spreadsheet but the error this produces is small and not important to this discussion.

______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot


1____ 1200_____ 306 ________76.43%
2 ____1257 _____320 ________80.09%
3 ____1299 _____331 ________82.71%
4 ____1328 _____338 ________84.58%
5 ____1349 _____344 ________85.91%
6 ____1364 _____347 ________86.87%
7 ____1375 _____350 ________87.55%
8 ____1382 _____352 ________88.04%
9 ____1388 _____354 ________88.39%
10 ___1392 _____355 ________88.64%
11 ___1394 _____355 ________88.81%
12 ___1396 _____356 ________88.94%


Now as you can see this is a hell of a difference. No real ramp up time just the time it take for the body to respond. This is also a good way to get the test flu, so be forewarned.

Below is a quick reference of the esters and there respective half-lives.

Formate 1.5 days
Acetate 3 days
Propionate 4.5 days
Butyrate 6 days
Valerate 7.5 days
Hexanoate 9 days
Caproate 9 days
Isocaproate 9 days
Heptanoate 10.5 days
Enanthate 10.5 days
Octanoate 12 days
Cypionate 12 days
Nonanoate 13.5 days
Decanoate 15 days
Undecanoate 16.5 days

NICE ONE PIGMEAT

Very interesting read Pig!

That is a truly great post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pigmeat

too many people dont understand or know how to properly use long esters. This will explain everything and clear up some misconceptions.

********** POSTED BY SKYEFIRE AT SM ***********



The actually calculations are easy. The general form for doing this is M*** = MgD * (1/2)^(D/HL). MgD is milligrams in depot, M*** is milligrams in depot left, D is days, and HL is the half-life in days. If your mathematically inclined you can also do in logs but I am lazy and this is close enough. So say you took a shot of 800mgs Testosterone Cypionate, which has a half life of 12 days, on Monday, by Sunday you would have 800*((.5)^(7/12)) or 534mg left in the depot. 800-534=266mg that you actually got that week from that shot. If you took another 800mg shot on the following Monday you would (504+800) *((.5)^(7/12)) or 870 left in the depot at the end of week two. 1304-870=434 that you actually got to use during week two and so on. As you can see the long esters take quit a bit of time to get to the weekly dosage. Please note that the calculation for week two starts out with D being 8 instead of 7, hence the 504 instead of the 534.

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If the roid cal is used by sunday it shows that only 339mgs is left. but the roid cal uses 6 days for the half life and skyfire uses 12 days :nervous:

I had posted on the orginal thread asking for skyfire to clear it up. I also PM'ed him with no response.

https://www.fitnessgeared.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=40254

same topic

hey pigmeat was just readin the thread you did on long esters good read man but hey i still cand use the equation lol ... i was wantiong t odo 1540 of sust a week one shot ev day and 3 deca finnishing a course with prop and tren could you based on that equation work out the best way for me to take it? im not good at this maths thing will also be d-ball ing 10 aday for 6 weeks
ne help is much appriciated m8 cheers

how long you wanting to run this for? I wouldnt reccomend running deca and tren in the same cycle unless it is a long one so that the deca clears before you start the tren.

sorry m8 i meant t osay i want to run it for ablout ten weeks but want t oknow based on the mathmatics how long should i run the deca and sust and then how do i run in the tren and prop... i want a god course so ten would be minimumand you say clear the deca?
so do i have to wait x amount of weeks before i introduce the tren??? wot i am trying to say friend is that i want a couse to do and duration for maximum efficiency based on the mathmatics you showed and involving sust/deca/propand tren/// how would you do it but i want t otake the sust 1 jag ed and dec 3 perweek now tren i wanna shoot for 1.5 ml perday for 1st week then eod from there on in prop the same
so could you design a course for me based on thid cheers m8 thanx for the help

I disagree with those half lives, I say those are the active lives of those esters. My reason, if those were the half life of the ester then you'd need to wait longer then 2 weeks to start pct with say enan. You want to start pct when the hormone has cleared the system not when it's at half the dose or when the dose is breaking down to half.

JohnnyB

so can ne one help me???

what is your history, stats and goals....

hey im 37yr been on gear for 2_3 yr been on some heavy enough courses.. but cant seem to bulk up ......... hight 5'4 weight 170 tops and i eat til im sick mate...just think ive been doin the gear wrong and need some helpthis course im keepin it simple d-bol sust deca and then tren /prop just need time span and things ... sust ed and deca 3 a week... trhen onto tren 1.5 ed for 4 day then 1.5 eod to finnish time?? prop on the other days so do i do thededol for first 4_6 weeks, sust and deca for first 8 weeks and then wot????? when do i introduce the tren and prop?
not to mention clomid /nolva... wot wat would that look on paper ?? cheers