Deca with clen/eca? and how much cardio can I do?

Hey guys, thanks for helping if you're reading this. Yes, of course, I'm a newbie and yes, I've searched for these answers here and elsewhere and just got conflicting advice that didn't help me. OK, first of all, I'm not doing this to get big or compete or whatever. Getting extra lean muscle mass is a welcomed benefit, but not the primary concern. I will try to keep this as short as possible: Basically, I've been sick for a number of years and lost muscle, strength, energy, etc. etc. Now, due to some other supplements, I've started to feel a little better and realized that with excercise, my endorphine and energy levels shoot up and make me feel alive again. I'm about to start some new therapy w/ antibiotics and hyperbaric oxygen therapy along with many natural supplements, that will kill the infection and get me well once and for all. The problem is that I don't have enough energy to even get started doing any real exercise for any amount of time. Also, due to joint, bone, back pain, and my loss of muscle, I have a hard time even being able to do enough excercise to do any good.

I've taken Deca, Winnie, Test, some clen, back years ago. I liked the Deca and got some lean muscle out of it easily with no side effects and it helped my knees and joints. The more I read about Deca nowdays, I've found the reports and studies of it's benefits to the painful joints and also that it has boosted the immune system and energy level of HIV patients given lower doses than most of you guys take. So I'm thinking about using low dose Deca to get some energy and drive to get into the gym, where it will also help my joint pain.

OK, it should boost my immune system also, as it did in the HIV studies, and help my upcoming treatment work better so I can be well once and for all. It should make me feel better in general, which will help out with everything. I will be having liver enzymes and other tests run 2x a month and will stop if there are any problems.

So, I need to get some energy, get back in the gym, get back some muscle, get my endorphines flowing again, and try to get rid of some fat also. I know this is an out of the ordinary cycle. But with my own experience and from learning of other's experiences and doing research, I think this will help me a lot as far as quality of life and hopefully helping my immune system.

I was thinking I'd start out with about 150 mg/week of deca and depending on how I feel and how training is going later, possibly increase to 300 if I can train hard enough. I'm wondering though, if I do this, should I use a clen/eca 2wk alternation during the deca cycle or after? I need to lose fat, but if using the clen/eca or doing much cardio is going to burn up calorie intake that I need for energy and that my muscles are going to need to repair, then I can wait. Oh, another plus is that the hyperbaric oxygen treatment forces 100% Oxygen into your cells and helps speed up tissue repair, which, should help my muscles repair a little more quickly than they would otherwise. What do you guys think?

Deca seems to offer what I need: energy to get up and get moving again, relief of joint pain so I can do more, low toxicity, low or no side effects or gyno at my dose, energy, lean muscle, strength, and what will hopefully work out well for me: the boosting of my immune system. A higher quality of life all around and help getting back on my feet.

I know it's not the kind of cycle you guys normally see in here but what are your thoughts on it? And what about the clen/eca and cardio during the little "cycle?" If it won't burn up all the calories that my muscles need, then I'll do it. If it will be a problem, I'll wait. The important thing is to get started and I can't do it all on my own, I think the deca will give me that little boost I need to get going. I know a few doctors I can show the info. to and talk about it with but I wanted to get the bro's thoughts on this first. Thanks everyone.

best of luck to you in your treatment...

i have to be quick (at work)

a small cycle may do you better or worse....only time will tell

You would definitely need to add a low dose of test, if only a 100mg a week

some more people will add in later.........

cheers

OK, thanks, I have some test 200 also, I can do that as long as it will not drag down the immune system or keep the deca from "boosting" the immune system. I have B12 injectible too, that helps a little with energy and boosting the immune system as well. Since I started this post last night, I've been thinking more about doing that. It is what I would do if I weren't starting these new treatments but since I am, I was worried about the effect that adding test would have on the immune system. At low doses with the deca and B12, it may give me a little boost and me the thing to do. I'm going to research more and think about it more and anyone else's thoughts and opinions would be greatly appreciated. Also, if I did add in low dose test, what would you reccomend in the way of PCT and anti-est.? Some people have said at those doses I would be ok without it but may want to have some on standby. Others have said I need to up my doses a little more and get some clom, etc. Any input appreciated.

I AGREE WITH SE...YOU NEED SOME TEST WITH IT. THE B12 SHOULD PUT A SPARK IN YOU ALSO.

GOOD LUCK WITH IT AND KEEP US POSTED!
O2

I agree with gthe above. As far as the clen and ECA, I would wait for those until after you are "back on your feet" so to speak. You dont want to put your body through too much given your situation. Adding test will definately be good. For PCT I would run both Nolva and Clomid. I couldnt see above for how long you are thinking of running?

i would put off the clen and eca....other than the immediate energy boost i don't see any beneficial factors..........plus these drugs can be very bad if you are already cardiovascularly unfit

definitely read up on PCT protocol (post cycle therapy) also have some nolva on hand incase of a gyno outbreak

Thanks. I'm thinking adding test is the way to go. Everyone recommends it and through more reading, it just makes sense. I am starting oxygen therapy first, then I'll have some time before I start antibiotics to see how everything is going to work out. I don't want to be putting too many chemicals in my body at one time. I'll save the clen/eca until afterwards. I didn't have a definite time set for a cycle to run, I just wanted to get a boost to get me back on my feet, get me feeling better, and help my immune system out and the joint pain too. So I was just going to see how things went and adjust accordingly. If I'm able to get a good workout going withing a couple of weeks, then I planned on upping the dose a little and running about a 12 week cycle and see what I can get out of it. If not, then I'd be happy with a very low dose cycle, just a little boost to get me back in shape and feeling alive again, and of course, any help that my joints and immune system can get from the deca will be great. I don't foresee any medical problems coming up. Tons of people I've talked to said they've been on a cycle and antibiotics at the same time and it was no problem. I'll have liver enzyme tests every two weeks and a few other tests run once a month. I can also easily request any other test that you guys think may be beneficial. I think it will be interesting to see how much this can help someone out mostly as a sort of therapy, rather than soley to build mass. Of course, the mass is welcome but not the main goal here. I would never expect to gain much with the low dosage and the shape I'm in right now, but I'm sure it will make a noticeable difference anyway. It should help me get back into the swing of things, get back on a schedule, give me a reason to eat right and to get out of bed and go excercise. It will be interesting to see how this works along with the Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy. The increased amount of oxygen in the body helps repair tissue more quickly and it seems that if my muscles are broken down from a workout, that they would repair themselves more quickly, possibly leading to quicker gains and less pain -- basically helping to get me back into shape more quickly. We'll see.

OK, so I'm thinking that if I get some energy and can get back in and get into a routine and am able to do a good workout with no problems, then I'll move up to 300mg/wk Deca. And I'm thinking 200-300mg/wk Test. What do you guys think? I've got enough of everything to last 10 - 12 wks at those doses. I'll have clomid and nolva on hand too.

Remember though, that I'm not trying to get huge here, it's more of an experimental therapeutic cycle help me out in the areas I mentioned above. So taking a ton of Test is not what I really need. I guess you could say I need to take the minimum amount that would still work well with the Deca and still give me a boost. I had originally thought I would not take the Test at all until later, because in general, most types of steroidal treatments, (anti-inflammatories, nasal sprays, etc. etc.) have been known to decrease the ability of the immune system. But since the Deca has been used successfully to boost energy, lean mass, releive joint pain, and boost the immune system, it seemed like just the thing I needed. I thought the Test may drag the immune system down, but maybe at lower doses and along with the Deca, it will not effect it. I haven't been able to find any studies on the effects of Test on the immune system. Let me know what you guys think.

If I'm not able to work up to a decent workout but can only do a little here and there and the joint pain is OK and energy is OK, then I'll be happy with that too. It's better than where I'm at now. In that case, I'd leave the dosages low. I'm thinking 150 -200 mg/wk Deca, and 100-200 mg/wk Test. How does that sound?

I've talke to a few people who said that the low dose cycle wouldn't do anything and I'd just be wasting it. But I don't think they're understanding what I'm trying to do here. Other friends said that they remember taking their first few cycles years ago that started out low dose, similar to the low dose cycle above, and they remember feeling better in general, having more energy, being a little stronger in the gym, even though their gains weren't much and the dosage was so low. Hey, if that's all I can get, then that's fine, that's what I need. If I can do the cycle with the slightly increased dosage and get more out of it,then that's cool too. I just can't drag down my immune system because I've got to get rid of this Lyme disease once and for all and get my life back. So that's the only thing I can't really seem to find much info. on is the effects of Test. on the immune system. I have plenty of other herbs, vitamins, supplements that help boost the immune system, so along with the Deca I'm not to terribly worried about the Test. But I'd still like to know what you guys think about all this.

Also, if I start this and do the Test./Deca, would it be good to PreLoad on the Test. since the first low dose of Deca will stop all natural test production? The Test. is cyp. 200. Nice that it lasts so long, but it takes longer to get the levels up also, right? So when nat. test production stops, I need to be getting the levels up higher pretty quickly right? Just another thought I had while trying to come up with a plan.

Any help is appreciated. I'm here to listen and learn, and hopefully leave behind some info. that may help someone else out later on. So feel free to let me know what you think. Good, bad, whatever. Any input is appreciated. Thanks alot guys.

You sound like you are on the right track, I'd keep the dose low. You are right to be concerned with too many chemicals at once

no real need to pre load

please start a workout routine and get in a regular habit & protocol before beginning with the test and deca

also, take a slow and measured pace with your workouts, when the gear starts to kick in you will wnat to jump up fast with intesity, use a slow and measured approach


stick around we would love to have you as a regular member, how old are you

Alright thanks,

I'm 29.

Best of luck JST- dont hesitate to ask anything your wondering here and great to have you here.

Ok, thanks alot, we'll see how it goes. Started excercising yesterday but it was painful and I'm very worn out, low energy, etc. If I started the low dose test & deca now, would it give me the extra boost of energy I need to be able to get in a better workout? Also, the Deca should take care of the pain in the joints and allow me to do more too. It's just hard to do anything right now and I remember feeling almost energized and stronger and was in a better mood with a "can do" attitude when I took them years and years ago. If I could get that feeling back, I could get back on my feet easier and more quickly. I've got friends telling me to go for it, that it will make me feel better and give me that extra boost I need to get out and get things done, both in the gym and in my everyday life as well. Some say it would be wasting it to start now. But I'm just talking about low dose, for energy, feeling better, and the joint pain. Just enough to get me on my feet and back on track with my health, fitness, and my life as well. Then later I would possibly raise the dose if all goes well. By the way, I do have low test and growth hormone levels, we tested a few months ago, but my Dr. didn't seem to think that it was the biggest of our worries at the time. He's more concentrated on getting rid of the Lyme bacteria. And I can't afford HGH therapy right now. So, that being said, if I started low dose now, it seems that it may just give me what I need to get everything going. What do you think? Is it wasting it or bad for me to start low dose now? Or would it give me what I need to get going, considering the situation I'm in? I know it's a strange situation but I appreciate you guys help. Thanks again guys, and thanks Slightly Enhanced for taking the time to talk with me and read all of this. Greatly appreciated.

I think the low dose would not be wasting it- especially if you have low test levels to begin with. Could you post up an example day of your diet for us? I'm thinking there are some things that could be improved upon in that to help you out with energy. Making sure you get the rights vitamins and nutrients can do wonders for energy levels.

Thanks geesler. OK, I know my posts have been kinda long and this one will be the longest. Sorry, if this gets on you guys' nerves, let me know and I'll start cutting them down a bit. But after this one, you'll know my entire situation and then it'll be smooth sailing.

I'm going to start this out with my info. and some background so you all can fully understand the situation. I should have done this from the start, sorry. Here's my info:

Age: 29
-180 lbs (been 175 for the last 12 years, working out or not. Gained 20 during bed rest, and just lost about 15 of that)
-5'10 1/2
-Body Fat - maybe 12-15%? I could be wrong. (I'll have this checked next week and post it here. I remember it being 12 before getting really sick)
-I've got Lyme disease

Back in the day, I had energy, strength, motivation. I was a small guy basically but with lean muscle (natural) and suprisingly, I was stronger than most of the big guys I knew. That was the only good thing I had to be proud of, I was a hard worker and tough, great strength for my body size, lean, energetic. I enjoyed it and I enjoyed excercise and working out, even though I wasn't into sports at all. But later, all that was lost and I can't believe what a turn things have taken.

If you haven't already read it above, I have had Lyme disease for 11 years now and have gotten much worse in the last few years. I've been on tons of medicines - antibiotics (oral and IV), anti-inflammatories, muscle relaxers, etc, etc, and was on a variety of pain killers (Vics, Lortab, Norco, then Percocet and a few OC's) for about 2 years. Nothing good came out of any of that, plus, my tolerence to medicine is extremely high so I had to take more and more and more to kill the pain. So I started to abuse the hell out of the Percs and getting more from other places, you know, etc, etc. You wouldn't even believe me if I told you how much of certain things I took and stupid things I did that would have killed most people and - a few times, I think, almost killed me. For probably a year or year and a half, I was on Percs every waking hour of every single day. It was the only way I felt like myself and the only way I could function. So anyway, in May of this year I decided to stop taking everything, and get all this crap out of my body and start from scratch. So after terrible withdrawals, I only added back the couple of meds I had to have, and mostly stuck to vitamins, natural medicine, etc. But I was at rock bottom and feeling worse than ever, high blood pressure, couldn't sleep, got huge appetite, gained about 20lbs, tired, exhausted, no drive to do anything, miserable. I didn't realize until a little later that after being on Opiates for so long, your body stops producing endorphins and dopamine, (most important). So when you stop taking them, it's equal to what happens to you guys when you stop taking test - your nat. test levels are at zero. So after stopping opiates, nat. endorphine and dopamine production are at zero. This effects every aspect of your life and your being. These are your natural pain killers, energy and mood enhancers, among tons of other things. They control your attitude, mood, feelings, appetite, pain, anxiety, tons of other important feelings and processes. (Some of you knew this already but if anyone else is interested in this or has questions or wants to know more, I can give you all that I have learned and experienced, just drop me a line: (Jstephens2012@yahoo.com) I'm definitely no big anti-drug, reborn, 12-step program guy, but I learned enough about my situation to be able to inform others so they can understand what's going on and keep things under control. Most Doctors, I've found, don't even know this. They know people get addicted and abuse, but they don't understand the chemical dependence the brain develops on Opiates. You're not doing it to get loaded, you're doing it so you can wake up in the morning, go to work, have a conversation, feel normal. I couldn't even talk on the phone or leave the house unless I took them. Honestly, I think it's just that you can't understand it until you've been there yourself. I've tried to tell doctors about dopamine and endorphine deficiency lasting for a long time after stopping opiates and that was what was causing my high blood pressure, depression, anxiety, lack of energy, etc, etc. But they either just said "hmm, yeah, those medicines can cause some of those side effects sometimes" or "yeah, well, I don't think that's the problem, I think we need to get you on this medicine or that medicine and see a cardiologist." They just don't get it. By the way, the Cardiologist said everything was fine and every other test and scan showed everything was fine, so, they just had no idea why all this happened all the sudden. What the hell? I'm trying to tell them exactly what happened! Ok, Ok, anyway -

Now I've been off of them for 3 months and made some progress since then. (Am I in the Narcotics Anonymous forum? Damn this is getting long!) Sorry guys if this isn't interesting but I'm trying to let you know where I've been and the reasons for what I'm trying to accomplish with this. OK, so I still have: ZERO energy, sleep problems, no motivation, just not myself. Of course, Lyme disease has a lot to do with this too. But low endorphins, Dopamine, and probably even the low HGH and Test have a lot to do with it. So now with no pain meds, I just deal with it, but energy and motivation and mood are terrible. Basically, I've been in bed for a long time, besides getting out of the house whenever I could muster up the energy. But I found that the couple of times I pushed myself to do something physical, or even go for a bike ride or something, though it was miserable and painful and I thought I was going to pass out during it, afterwards I felt a rush of clarity and energy and boost in mood. It doesn't last, but it is good for a few hours before it crashes. So working out forces endorphin and dopamine production, which will make me feel better, it should build muscle which will take stress off of my joints and alleviate the pain, and make my entire quality of life better. The problem is getting up and getting out to do it.

That's where the idea for the Deca came in, because years ago I felt a boost in energy, strength, and mood from it, and of course, the help in the joints and the boost in immune system in those HIV studies could be very beneficial. Adding the test. seems like the thing to do with the Deca, for a number of reasons. But I need to keep doses beneficial for my situation, not for bulking. (Not right now anyway)

Diet:
Since I'm coming out of being in bed probably 70% of the time for the last 6 months probably, where I ate just whenever I felt like getting up, I am just now starting to get my diet back together. Ate lots of eggs, fish, chicken yesterday, along with some veg. soup. Today I'm going to stock up on eggs, fish, chicken, lots of tuna, some fruits and veggies, protein powder, some beef, and whatever else you guys recommend. I'm thinking high protein, some carbs for energy, and vitamins and aminos to get going. At least 2500 cal per day to start, then up it later if this works and I'm able to get back in shape and do a real workout. I've found so much conflicting info on protein intake that I'm not sure what to do yet.

You have to remember, my main goal is not to get huge here, just to get back on my feet and get my health and fitness and life back. If I can do that with diet and a low dose cycle, then that is what I need. If I'm able to do that first, then yes, I will train harder and eat more and up the dosage and any gains in lean musc. mass would be great, as well as take the stress off of my back and knees and some of my problem areas. But like I said before, Juicing up and getting huge is not my expectation or my main goal here. That being said, a 3500 cal diet and 300 something g. of protein a day doesn't seem to be what I need here. In fact, it would probably make me fat. So anyway, I have come up with a rough idea of beginning with about 2500 cal./day - maybe 150-200 g./day of protein? And go from there as we see how things work out. Let me know what you guys recommend for diet.

OK, things I already take:
--HGH promotor - Dr. told me to get it after we did the HGH test, it's the spray under the tongue kind. I think it's junk. I wish he'd just pop me with some HGH!
--L-Tyrosine - A doctor I corresponded with online who taught me all about the opiate withdrawal and the low endorphine and dopamine levels recommended this to me to boost energy and dopamine release. This was the single thing that got me out of bed and made me even think that I may have a chance at feeling normal again.
--L-5HTP - for serotonin, mood, to help sleep
--Alive! multivitamins made from green foods.
--Additional vit. C
--Additional vit. E
--B-12 injections (prescribed, not vet)
--Superfood supplement that supplies you with all of the nutrients from green leafy vegetables
--Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids
--Antioxidant powder from my doctor
--Natural Immune System support supplements
--A few other natural chinese herbs which got my blood pressure under control better than the doctor prescribed meds!, help fatigue, and possibly even promote immune function and sense of well being. - we'll see

I stay away from as much medicine and other chemicals as possible now. Drink alcohol maybe once a week. Pills to sleep or relax muscles occasionally. Not much caffeine. Not big on sweets. I can adapt my diet to anything, it's no problem. I just haven't had the drive to stick with it yet, but this will help me. Besides that, (and kinda off subject a little) I have some Andro, Andro poppers, etc., Tribulus, some cutting gel (Epidril), and HMB from when my parents owned a GNC recently. Never used it except the Tribulus but what do you guys think about this stuff, Junk? OK? Let me know if you've used them and what you think or if I should trash them. I've got clen and eca stacks as well but as most of you recommended, I'll save 'em for later.

As health goes, my Blood Pressure is fine now, I will have bi-monthly liver enzyme tests run, I just started hyperbaric oxygen therapy yesterday and will give it a trial run for 10 sessions to see what effect is has on killing the Lyme bacteria. An as I mentioned in another post, the oxygen should help my muscles rebuild more quickly also. I won't start any antibiotics or other drugs for at least a few weeks or more. But I'm still weak and have low energy and low motivation and pain. All physicals and lab reports show that I'm perfectly healthy, though I feel like I'm dead. Though I have a few things on my side now helping me out a little, I still need more "boost" to give me energy, strength, and motivation to get back in shape and get healthier. So as I said, I think the Deca for a boost in energy and mood and the other medical benefits, is going to be a good thing to try during this time. And the Test. makes since to add in with it, just at a low dose for now.

Ok, so to sum it up: I'm thinking about starting a cycle, probably for 12 weeks, depending on what dosages I get up to or stick with. Deca - 150-200mg/wk. Test. cyp. - 100-200mg/wk. Add in some B12. Keep up my reg. vitamins etc. And eat high protein meals, maybe 2500 cal/day to start. And as for protein I really need your input on this. I'm thinking 150-200g/day to start. Don't want too much, but definitely want enough for my muscles to use when I start working out. If this sounds good to you guys and I stick with it, then I'll be happy just to be alive again and any gains I get will be nice too.

If it works out well with no problems and I'm able to work up to a good routine within a couple of weeks, then I'd think about increasing the Deca to 300 mg/wk and Test. maybe 200-300 mg/wk depending on the dose that I decide to start out with.

I'm thinking Liquid Dex for anti-est, unless you guys recommend otherwise, and Liquid Clo for PCT, both from sciensupply.

So that's all of it. I seriously appreciate you guys reading all this and helping me out. As I said before, all opinions welcome, good or bad. One thing nobody has said much about is how much cardio I can do if I start this cycle. Just don't want to burn myself out or burn up calories that my muscles need. Dosage and diet are the main things to be decided now. And if I started now, would it give me that "boost" I'm looking for to feel better and have more energy and determination that will help me get "back on my feet" and into a routine that will help me get my life back? From experience, I think so. And a few friends and other people are telling me yes. But a couple of guys I know told me it would be a waste to start now and to get in the gym for a couple of months first, then do it. The thing is, without it, I may not be able to cut it at the gym. I'm looking at this in the aspect of enhancing my entire life, not just to enhance muscle. OK, I'll shut up now and wait to see if anyone reads this long enough to reply. Thanks again guys. Greatly appreciated.

My mother has Lyme disease bro- I feel for you.

2500 cals a day is good, 150-200 is good, make sure your getting most of your carbs from good carbs like oats, whole grains and whole wheat for bread.

Your other supps are good, especially the super food ones, try to add as many fresh veggies as you can to snack on too.

The GNC stuff I think the only thing you would really want is the Trib for your your test and maybe a boost in energy. The andro stuff I would leave alone.

Your cycle seems good, I am not familiar personally with Deca but know it will help the joints and that should make working you and things easier for you.

Alright, thanks Geesler. And hope your mom gets better, it's a strange and rough disease. I dealt with it for 9 years before we even found out I had it. But the last year or so has gotten much much worse. I don't know what stage your mom is in or what her worst symptoms are, but I recently started accupuncture which seems to help out a lot with pain and headaches. And I noticed that after I stopped taking the tons or medicines they had me on a while back, I felt better just getting all those chemicals out of my body, and then only taking the meds. that I absolutely had to. That pain med. can be a ***** too, so keep that in mind if she's taking them. I found that if I didn't take them everyday, I'd be in a lot of pain, but a few weeks after I stopped taking them, my pain was still there, but surprisingly not as intense or as often as when I was on the pain meds. If you or your mom may have any questions about my experiences and treatments I've had for Lyme, then feel free to Email me. Jstephens2012@yahoo.com. I haven't worked for over a year and I wasn't able to finish my last semester of college. But now I've got 3 doctors helping me and I go to accupuncture twice a week. So with their help and starting this little cycle and workouts along with hyperbaric oxygen therapy, I think I'll be able to get my life back together.

Although the doctors would never recommend AAS for me, I think this little cycle will help get me on my feet and help me feel more energetic and give me some motivation. Anyone got anymore recommendations or thoughts? If nobody sees any problems with this, I think I'm going to give it a try and see how I feel. Thanks everyone.