Tweetnice post sempai. i have read mr draeger's work and found it informative. my sensei's sensei schooled us on the importance of keeping the jutsu in karate-jutsu not just going thru the motions of karate-do. nice to read a post by a very well informed person as yourself my friend. kudos =)

Tweeti just dont know much of martial arts past the the ones modified for sport (although we train spine, throat, groin, knee strikes ect... in Muay Thai)

I want to learn about them, is there a good site or a good place to start?

TweetWell to begin your research google bujutsu or koryu bujutsu or the menkyo system which is how people got a liscense or entrance into the clan. Read as bid dawg wrote anything by don draeger. Martial arts is probably one of the most corrupt and misleading organizations in our society. Most if not all modern martial arts are for sport. Of course those you mentioned absolutly have great use in training. However to train for ring or tournament is very much different for training for life or death. On the street or the battlefield one doesnt have time for holds or chokes cuz you may have others coming from all angles to attack with anything. Therefore to live you need to kill. In bujutsu if there is no reason to kill then no reason to fight. What is scary is bujutsu is easy to learn. All the modern sport forms are much more difficult. Akin to bujutsu are meth of indonesia called silat or penjak silat. All fashioned after bladed weapons. Matchete dagger karumbit also many filipino methods of kali and escrima. They all center on limb destruction. Either snapping joints or shattering bones or slicing arteries and tendons. Most systems that are war or combat oriented utilize drills to gain skills. No forms no katas . Cutting drills. Coordination sensitivity drills etc all to gain understanding of the science and concepts and principles behind the system. You can usually distinguish these methods of combat by the fact most dont adverstise or even allow entry without an invitation from a member. My school is an underground school . I dont teach anyone under 18. The man who invented judo was named jigiro kano. His dream was to have schools offer his method as part of. Elementary curriculum. He eliminated all the lethal movements from jujutsu then called it judo. He then taught this judo to the gracies which you see in last paragraph. They really do judo not jujutsu. Kano also invented the dan system of ranking. Ie. White yellow green blue ect ect black. Now the dan system has become this shallow incinsistent measure of so called skill in all modern martial arts. Traditional koryu use the menkyo system in japan. The islands give titles no belts. However martial arts have become so commercialized and watered down almost all modern variations use the dan system. As a child i studied many modern methods gained shodan or above. Then i discovered silat pukulan tjimande, bujutsu jujutsu ect., kali escrima ive seen the pros and cons of both. I saw action overseas in my job ive had problems and had to resort to use them. I find the history and culture fascinating. Some say what use do we have of feudal weapons in modern times. Although technology has developed advanced firearms and explosives. This has also decreased the idea of using the blade or hand effectively. War then is the same with a human body as is now. To break a limb or slash an artery when attacked has not changed. Practicing with a sword or macated improves your reflexes and conditions your body for combat. Ive found wearing white pajamas yelling breaking boards and punching i. The air is but a childs exercise. If i had a kid and wanted them to learn to protect themself. Obviously i cant start with warrior methods. However i would not have them do a karate or kenpo or kung fu. I would either have them do boxing or muy thai of mma or judo. Then they can at least begin to understand the dynamic nature of movement and contact. Then when they matured id teach them how to alter their methods to kill. The sword does not take life it cuts down the evil that tries to take yours.

Tweetour Wai Khru we do before fights came from fighting with swords. when we learn it, we use wooden practice swords so we dont "short" the moves. i will check out bujutsu or koryu bujutsu and I will try to learn more about my own Art Martial in Muay Thai.

one thing i have learned from you is the respect for the Combat and where an art came from. perhaps learning more about Muay Thai will make me appreciate it that much more.

TweetPlus years of chatting with your teacher and other teachers will tell you things that you cant find in a book or youtube ect ect. Most combat schools again dont advertise or demonstrate fir public. For example in many of the filipino schools they demonstrate with rattan sticks hitting stick to stick. Same with sword schools. In the private teaching its never that way. The intent is a knife of blade and never blade to blade you slash the incoming wrist leg arm . You take what is offered and cut it deeply. In my ketsugo school we jave a series of neck breaks with throws. A flow or catalogue of 12 neck breaks. Never will you see those in a book or you tube ect. You just dont want so me kid accidently killing his pal or some convict in his cell adding to his repitiore. Usually there is a public way and dojo way .

I trained at Fairtex Muy Thai for few years myself- I think as far as conditioning your body and learning to hit through the body nothing beats it. The :
WAI KHRU is more of a ritualistic thing as they were very supersitious , They dont have a concrete history of muy thai as not many records were kept.
“MUAYTHAI” has been practiced by Thais for over 2000 years and it’s traditions have been passed down from Generation to Generation as with most ancient Self Defence. One of the oldest traditions is a dance called “RAM MUAY”, which every boxer perform before a fight.
Before every fight the boxer “seal the ring” by circling three times, after which they perform the “RAM MUAY”, showing respect to their opponents and opposing camps, as well as parents, teachers and whatever religions they may believe in. Many boxers will display their techniques in this warm up and it is the perfect opportunity to study opponents.
For some boxers the Ram Muay represents deep spiritual beliefs while for others it’s the perfect warm up before a fight to get the mind and body ready for competiton. The music is refereed to as “wong pee glong” and is played by four musicians, each with their own instruments, pi java (Javanese oboe), glong kaek (a pair of thai drums played by 2 musicians) and a ching (small Thai cymbals) – The songs are very specific, only played in MUAYTHAI.
Every boxer wears a traditional headband, called a “mongkon”, which dates from the beginning of MUAYTHAI history- it is believed to bring good luck to the competition. Many boxers also wear a “Prajiad” around their biceps, also a long tradition.
Each school or family had passed down their own versin of this dance. Much info can be found in history books of each culture, look up military history , in like Japanese you look up the Bushi (samurai) the Moro soldiers in SOutheast Islands- the common thread is what method did soldiers paractice- not the peasants

TweetArnis/ Kalis/ Silat
The Southern Filipino islands like Mindanao were the same people as Indonesia before some European drew an imaginary line across it and proclaimed it's Filipino statehood.
The American government brought the muslim territories into what is now the Philippines...... They were independant areas before..... Actually there were already some muslim settlers in Luzon and the Visayas (ex. Rajah Sulaiman camp in what is now called Intramuros). Different waves of immigration came to the Philippines some from Borneo other from Indonesia.....
Arnis & Eskrima are Spanish words. They're Northern Filipino stick/ knife fighting mixed with European sword fighting.
Arnis, Escrima and Kalis are different words for what we understand by filipino weapon arts..... they do not correspond to different martial arts....
Arnis-Escrima-Kalis are words like Kung Fu to designate local martial arts and not different systems....
The spanish word Arnis is understood in the whole archipelago, escrima mostly in cebu and some southern islands....
Nearly nobody in the Philippines uses the word Kalis.....
The muslim "escrima-arnis-kalis" art I know wasn't called kalis, escrima or arnis before.
Just "to use the bolo" in the Yakan dialect, in recent times (silat) grandmaster use the words escrima, arnis to talk about it in front of christian filipinos..... but it means the same art.It is very different (by it's footwork) from any other christian system.... but it never was called Kali.
If muslim filipinos practiced an art called Kali christian filipinos could hardly have learned it from them given the bad relations between both groups....
Read about any famous Northern Filipino Arnis or Eskrima stick fighters and you will find that they traveled to the Southern Filipinos to study Kali with the legendary tribes and masters.
There are lots of stories about this..... and most of them are doubtfull....
I know one famous player of the Illustrissimo group who once told to some journalists that there are mountain arnis styles, rice fields arnis styles and city arnis styles.... the mountain styles would be long range oriented, the rice field medium range, and the city styles short range oriented.....
it became published afterwards,
there are so many false stories on fmas....
Arnis-Escrima.... are arts meant to kill peoples..... you don't teach this to your enemies. For centuries local muslims raided Luzon the Visayas and Mindanao (as well as Indonesia, Malaysia...) in retaliation for spanish expeditions and also for their economy based on slave labor... both groups were ennemies for centuries and this more or less goes on today.
Muslim filipinos and lumads would never teach their arts to outsiders, not even to muslims-lumads of other clan, even less to christian who are already masters and could be threats to their clans...
I had(ve) a hard time learning it and am not allowed to teach it outside the familly.
The biggest differences between Kali and Arnis & Eskrima are:
1) Kali uses mostly Filipino & Indonesian words and Arnis & Eskrima uses mostly Spanish & Filipino words.
2) Kali has stick fighting and empty hand fighting aspects. Arnis & Eskrima are stick fighting with empty hand disarms.
3) Kalis empty hand fighting is Silat. Arnis & Eskrimas empty hand disarms can be Karate, Aikido or whatever else they've adopted.
1) I know personally players of the Illustrissimo kalis group.... they use many spanish words...
In basilan "escrima" use Yakan words...
2) Kalis Illustrissimo is a blade art.... it has also empty hands and disarms.....
Muslim "escrima" systems are mostly blade arts, sticks are seldom used,they have empty hands and disarms.
3) Kalis Illustrissimo empty hands are very different from traditional silat... no jurus, no seni, different ways of moving, different positions, no illmu pratcices; there aren't infinite numbers of ways to hit an opponent but to my and their eyes it isn't silat....
Fmas empty hands are often called combat judo.... karate means any striking art in the Philippines, it can mean sikaran, kung fu, ,silat ,kuntao...
Now with all that said, there have been a lot of mixing in the last 30 years or so especially with the Northern styles so it is possible to see Silat in a particular Arnis or Eskrima style.
This is unlikely, if there is silat influence in some arnis styles it is probably indonesian silat...... filipino muslim guros are very secretive ....
Also the Arnis & Eskrima styles have added other Indigenous Filipino arts like Dumog (wrestling) & Sikaran (foot fighting/kicking) into them.

TweetJUTSU
Martial Arts Glossary

A Japanese suffix denoting 'skill' or 'art'. In martial terms it denotes classic combat weapons skills, for example, ken-jutsu; ju-jutsu, and so on.

Martial Arts Terms

Fighting method withthe bugel, arts of war,rather than with sporting or aesthetic values, which are generally linked to the do(way) methods developed in Japan after the mid-1 8th century. Some of the more popular were karate-jutsu, kenjutsu, aiki-jutso, and jujutsu; these were the antecedents of karate-do, kendo, aikido, and judo. Also spelled jitsu.

TweetKet,what do you think of Kali or Escrima style fighting?there's a pretty well known school not all that far from me in the Filipino section of jersey city.been reading about Kali/Eskrima since i was young.mostly books put out by Dan Inosanto and a few others.would love to get into that and/or Aikido.something about that art just looks peaceful yet still deadly...your thoughts?

TweetKali- probably one of the most practical methods for survival- however it will depend on the school and the teacher- I honestly dont think the Presas and jeet kune do schools are any good , but thats my personal opinion- one cuz they are more comercialized- commercialization ruins everything- the jeet kune do half asses everything so you never get a clear base or foundation. As far as Akido- go back and re-read my post- This thread initially addresses that excact issue.

I think there is a kali illustrisimo school around there you should check that out.

Tweet"I think there is a kali illustrisimo school around there you should check that out."
yup i think that's the one! Remy Presas has gotten so commercialized with his name i don't even think he knows people are using it.as for the jeet kune do schools,imho,are like the pop up ninja schools i see all over the city,here and in N.Y.C.
unless you're training under a direct decendant of one of the first real students you're probally gonna get a version of someones own made up moves he got from a training video.same with iron palm training.i looked for years and only came close one time in Chinatown that seemed real enough but was too far for me then.just something about Escrima/Kali that mystifies me.the flowing moves yet deadly if used properly...

TweetKali illustrisimo is one of my main studies. Its a largo mano style mostly but primarily a blade method. You should check it. If the ninjutsu is based under hatsumi and not hayes. Its what i call a complete method. It has everything .