TweetDpms and rock river make good production guns.

Tweetbuild one to the specs that you want and then you get what you want exactly and you can make fun of your brothers premade. I would go with rock river stuff find an 18" varmit barrel with an udjustable grip and stock. Nice scope and kill a lot of things with it. I actually might go look at them this weekend. I have been itching for somethign new.

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Originally Posted by jipped genes

i have about $800 to spend. i can get the saiga .223 but my brother is getting an AR and i cant have him out shooting me because of the rifle.and lets face it, an AR is more accurate than a AK

what is a better cheap brand?

i looked at DPMS and have read more good than bad. Stag arms ar15 look good but i would be hard pressed to get what i want at that price.

my brother will get top of the line whatever he gets.

What is it that makes an AR more accurate than an AK?

TweetThe same thing that makes an AK so reliable is what makes it not as accurate and consistent as other military rifles. The manufacturing tolerances are loose and this leads to not as tight fits between parts. The stamped receivers are the worst. The milled ones are better, but still not manufactured to tight tolerances.

TweetSo it's incorrect to state that, when it really boils down to accuracy in any firearm. It's the chamber, barrel, round, and shooter which make for accuracy.
It's those 4 factors that determine accuracy, period. You disagree?

TweetIt is correct to say that. That is why the AK is not inherently as accurate. Other guns are the same way. You can get a $500 deer rifle that will shoot decent or a $5000 target rifle that will preform 10x better. The difference in the two are the tolerances the parts are machined to. You could have an AK custom machined and it would be a lot more accurate than any of the production guns, but then you would give up the famous reliability. The AR is built to tighter tolerances. This is why it has to be kept extremely clean. He AK is a good rifle and does what it was designed to do, but you won't see one at a shooting competition. For me, an accurate production gun has to shoot 1MOA out of the box.

Tweetbtw, an AK has to shoot over 4MOA to be rejected.

TweetThe tolerances you talk about must be for barrel, correct? I haven't got to see the imprint on a round yet, but I'm sure there is a decent imprint on the AK. Just as an AR, among countless other firearms.
I don't see where tolerances in the action will make the next round odwn the barrel any more accurate than the last. Round after round. I can see where the action of the AK will make a difference in full auto, with all that **** in motion.
I just don't see it. I'm going to take my scope off and put it against some competition out about 50yrds, and see what's up. I've heard "the chrome lining is at the sacrifice of accuracy." But i learned that that is a false statement. I understand where you're coming from with the tight tolerances thing, but I just don't see it mattering for accuracy. Unless the barrel isn't imprinting worth a shit. I mean, after the action has cycled, and the round is chambered. All you have is a strike of the primer. I don't see how that can effect the accuracy of the rifle. I think it all on the shooter. That's why people drive tacks with .22s, .223...Then bring in the 7.62x...whatever. People anticipate, pull, flinch. Not everybody, but it happens. The AR is a much more tamed and refined machine. I give Armolite all credit where it's due. The AR is a fine rifle. It is easier to make a tack-driver out of someone. An AK, calibered in 7.62, does take some getting acquainted with. Many AKs throughout the world today, aren't sporting the greatest barrels. Scorched to hell and back. My AK has a very quality barrel that I've shot pretty decent with via iron sights. It shoots where it's aimed.

I don't know if you've ever gave an AK a run to see how it feels. From our conversation in PMs about it, I imagine not. But once you get used to that action and functionality. It'll hit where you point it.

This is one of those never ending subjects that go on and on until folks get on the range and (pros and cons) the 2 in comparison. Yes the gas operated .223 is a more tamed rifle. (Easier to warm up to.) Yes the AK is a hard slammin, very deliberate action that let's the shooter know 1st round. The accuracy debate has to go to the range though, because on the net...it goes on and on, and no-where.
I'll post some targets here in a couple weeks.

With the whole "loose tolerances" thing. That theory means that the Glock design is another not-so-accurate shooter. Gaston Glock designed a combat firearm with looser tolerances as well. You can feel it right out of the box. It doesn't quite have the stiffness of most new semi auto pistols. I do not believe that accuracy suffers because of this though. I don't believe that chrome lining a barrel assists inaccuracy either.

But, .22, .223, .243, .22-250...The "tack-driver's" across the land. Especially on clear days, with no added natural elements. Light rounds don't like obstacles. I just truly believe it has allot more to do with the shooter than the rifle.

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Originally Posted by jipped genes

i have about $800 to spend. i can get the saiga .223 but my brother is getting an AR and i cant have him out shooting me because of the rifle.and lets face it, an AR is more accurate than a AK

what is a better cheap brand?

i looked at DPMS and have read more good than bad. Stag arms ar15 look good but i would be hard pressed to get what i want at that price.

my brother will get top of the line whatever he gets.

I bought a Stag Model 2L (left handed) a while back and am happy with it. I would not recommend building one though because it will cost you more in all, and you are trying to conserve on price. Just get a basic model without the bells and whistles but quality made gun, you can add the extras later. I went with the 1/9 chrome lined barrel to be able to shoot 55 grain ammo best. My sights are Midwest Industries rear flip up and a front post, but the ARMS 40 is what I would prefer, however both are fine. Also, I went with the cheap hand guard and upgraded afterward to a Daniel Defense 7.0 Carbine Omega Rail Free-Float as seen below.
https://www.danieldefense.com/?page=s...product_id=109
You can add the rail, hand grips, bi-pod, scope, etc later on. Check out BudsGunshop.com and other online gun dealers before purchasing. Buds prices are tough to match and shipping is free plus no sales tax unless you live in KY. That's the way to go.

TweetHorsepower, there is a lot more to do with it than just the barrel. Headspacing, how true action is with barrel, free floating of barrel. I'm not putting down the AK, but if you really want to see what factors make a rifle more accurate you should go see a gunsmith that customizes target rifles. I've been shooting long range rifle competitions since high school. You would be suprised how much small tweaks affect accuracy. The recoil factor in accuracy only affects novice shooters. I have a 7.62mm that shoots under 3/8" groups at 100 yards. The AK is a great platform, but it's not desigined to be a tack driver.

TweetKickass! What "sniper rifle" are you shooting 3/8" groups with in that caliber?

Tweetseriously. There are weapons that'll do it dead center @ 100m in 7.62 by the several. most the time.lol...

TweetIt's a custom target rifle built on a rem 700 action. Pillar bedded, action trued, lilja barrel, Jewell trigger set at 3 ounces. When you get into competition shooting you have to measure the head spacing of the rifles chamber and load the rounds to that length. What works in that rifle may not even load in another. It's so meticulous it will drive you mad. After being so particular with everything it does feel great to go to the range with a semi auto and just blast away.