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Originally Posted by jipped genes

the Theological debate rages on! i agree. why play God but what about invitro fertilization isnt that the same thing? i am sure it wasnt in God's plan for a sperm and an egg to be removed from their host (somtimes it isnt even the Mother's or Dad's egg or sperm!) placed in a sterile bowl, fertilized then put into the "host" mother. If God didnt want you to have a child he would have made the pair that wishes to conceive able to do so...........right?

anyway it is a debate with many facetts and an interesting one on top of that

See, that debate is a very good one but it falls in the same line as cancer. If God lets you get cancer, why get treatment? I think God gives man the knowledge to do great things. However, I think it's when man tricks himself into believing that he did it all on his own that God punishes us. God made man smart enough to figure out invitro and as long as man gives God the credit for this knowledge then it could be a good thing. But, like you said, it's one heck of a debate. God made dwarfs the way they are but some of them go through pain saking bone lengthening procedures to be taller. Is man playing God or is man using what God gave him to overcome? There was one Dwarf that was 5'10" when he grew up as a result of this painful process. His torso was a little short but not bad because dwarfs tend to have long torsos and he know lives a very normal life. Is it bad or is it good? God designed him to be a dwarf, the brain God gave man was able to make him normal. Was there any wrong done? I guess it depends on who you ask. If God made one of my children deformed I would use everything modern medicine could do to correct it. You bet I would so they could have a normal life. But, I'm also of the belief that God gave us that wisdom to 'better' mankind. However, I don't think he gave it to us to 'create' man. In other words, I don't think man should clone humans and I don't think man should alter genetics. But, if man can clone organs that can save lives then I'm for it. But, I also know that fetus' don't have to die to do these things. Stem cell research can come from adults humans as well. Don't kill, don't create, just correct, that's where I am comfortable.

Tweetyeah but unfortunately the human race killed God and we are replacing it

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Originally Posted by T-Man007

See, that debate is a very good one but it falls in the same line as cancer. If God lets you get cancer, why get treatment? I think God gives man the knowledge to do great things. However, I think it's when man tricks himself into believing that he did it all on his own that God punishes us. God made man smart enough to figure out invitro and as long as man gives God the credit for this knowledge then it could be a good thing. But, like you said, it's one heck of a debate. God made dwarfs the way they are but some of them go through pain saking bone lengthening procedures to be taller. Is man playing God or is man using what God gave him to overcome? There was one Dwarf that was 5'10" when he grew up as a result of this painful process. His torso was a little short but not bad because dwarfs tend to have long torsos and he know lives a very normal life. Is it bad or is it good? God designed him to be a dwarf, the brain God gave man was able to make him normal. Was there any wrong done? I guess it depends on who you ask. If God made one of my children deformed I would use everything modern medicine could do to correct it. You bet I would so they could have a normal life. But, I'm also of the belief that God gave us that wisdom to 'better' mankind. However, I don't think he gave it to us to 'create' man. In other words, I don't think man should clone humans and I don't think man should alter genetics. But, if man can clone organs that can save lives then I'm for it. But, I also know that fetus' don't have to die to do these things. Stem cell research can come from adults humans as well. Don't kill, don't create, just correct, that's where I am comfortable.

I agree with you to a point. Scary thing about this whole topic is that same story line is used for the movie and game Doom. They say how humans came up with a somewhat superhuman genome that made man practically invincible to disease. If they can give you a shot or alter something when your born to ensure you aren't born with deformities or bad disease infested genes then so be it. Wouldn't you rather be cured before you were born rather than after? it's in all essence the same thing.

Tweett-man its all just a debate some people feel that if you do get cancer that only God should cure it and all forms of medicine are heresy. some might say that God wouldnt have given us the ability to do this without it being his will.

all in all it ends up coming down to your personal morals and beliefs.

the question i ask is "will it benefit ALL humankind and can you be sure it wont hurt?"

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Originally Posted by jipped genes

t-man its all just a debate some people feel that if you do get cancer that only God should cure it and all forms of medicine are heresy. some might say that God wouldnt have given us the ability to do this without it being his will.

all in all it ends up coming down to your personal morals and beliefs.

the question i ask is "will it benefit ALL humankind and can you be sure it wont hurt?"

Oh yeah, I was just playing the devils advocate because you are right, there are arguments for both sides. And both of which can be legit depending on how you look at it. I like the part about 'can you be sure it wont hurt?' There are a lot of medicines we trust the FDA on but they turn out to be worse than the ailment they are treating in some cases. It would be nice if they could make things without consequences but unfortuantely, the more we mess with the more problems we create. The side of the debate about God should cure cancer. Just imagine if that was the way it was. The average life expectancy wouldn't be so high, there wouldn't be soo many people on social security and there wouldn't be a social security problem. But then, on the flip side, we would all have to get married and have kids at 20 years old to enjoy our long life of 60 years. It does amaze me that the southeast asians can live so long and they don't take hardly any of the drugs we do. And, they are usually healthier in old age than we are. I don't know why our government doesn't promote naturaly healing....oh yeah....I forgot....then they wouldn't make as much money. Bastards! I love when I get a bottle of Echinacea and the bottle says "These statements have not been approved by the FDA". Good, that way I can trust it. LOL

TweetThere are many debates on many levels. One I find interesting is that science has already begun to "alter' humanity through its own evolution. We are better able to treat people with all forms of sickness and disease. We now have vaccinations, for example. Chemotherapy, sterile surgery, antidepressants, steroids . . . This enables us to keep many sick and diseased and extremely disabled poeple alive - people who would never have survived 50 or 100 years ago. This really alters the human genome through the elimination or emasculation of "natural selection." Intead of dying, these people with genetic defects and disease are living - and passing the defective or inferior genes on to children, and thus weakening the human race. This is why there is so much more disease and disability today. The next step, to correct the unintended consequence of advanced medicial treatments, is to genetically engineer people - before or after birth - to eliminate as many defects as possible.

First, progress in this area will come in the form of implanted genes that correct the way our DNA builds and repairs our bodies. We will become genetically resistant to disease, viruses, and be able to minimize the probability of birth defects. These will permanently alter our DNA, enabling us to pass the superior genes to our chilren, rather than defective ones. One day maybe we will also be able to do the same for genes that govern intelligence, athleticism, size, etc. Of course it sounds rosy and noble, but there are those unintended consequences to deal with as well . . . but I truly believe it will happen. As far as "playing God" goes, I believe it is our duty to him and ourselves to make the most of what he has given us - this also means using our brains to improve the quality of life for everyone. We began by using herbs for treament, then we developed surgery, and chemicals and hormones, and now we are looking at the next frontier - gene therapy. There will always be moral dilemmas in medicine, but the general idea of gene therapy is a good one. Definining the parameters will be the most difficult thing for us as a world community.

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Originally Posted by Testify

There are many debates on many levels. One I find interesting is that science has already begun to "alter' humanity through its own evolution. We are better able to treat people with all forms of sickness and disease. We now have vaccinations, for example. Chemotherapy, sterile surgery, antidepressants, steroids . . . This enables us to keep many sick and diseased and extremely disabled poeple alive - people who would never have survived 50 or 100 years ago. This really alters the human genome through the elimination or emasculation of "natural selection." Intead of dying, these people with genetic defects and disease are living - and passing the defective or inferior genes on to children, and thus weakening the human race. This is why there is so much more disease and disability today. The next step, to correct the unintended consequence of advanced medicial treatments, is to genetically engineer people - before or after birth - to eliminate as many defects as possible.

First, progress in this area will come in the form of implanted genes that correct the way our DNA builds and repairs our bodies. We will become genetically resistant to disease, viruses, and be able to minimize the probability of birth defects. These will permanently alter our DNA, enabling us to pass the superior genes to our chilren, rather than defective ones. One day maybe we will also be able to do the same for genes that govern intelligence, athleticism, size, etc. Of course it sounds rosy and noble, but there are those unintended consequences to deal with as well . . . but I truly believe it will happen. As far as "playing God" goes, I believe it is our duty to him and ourselves to make the most of what he has given us - this also means using our brains to improve the quality of life for everyone. We began by using herbs for treament, then we developed surgery, and chemicals and hormones, and now we are looking at the next frontier - gene therapy. There will always be moral dilemmas in medicine, but the general idea of gene therapy is a good one. Definining the parameters will be the most difficult thing for us as a world community.

WOW TESTIFY THAT WAS AN ABSOLUTELY AMAZING POST! That deserves rep! I couldn't agree more with what you wrote, and how you explained it.

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Originally Posted by T-Man007

I don't know why our government doesn't promote naturaly healing....oh yeah....I forgot....then they wouldn't make as much money. Bastards! LOL

because if people turned to wholeistic meds the drug companies profits would slip causeing stocks to plummet and the rich fat cats in washington would loose out on an extra $10,000 a year in returns.

not to mention the drug lobby is one of the strongest in the world funneling $millions of dollars to the men in power who support them both in hard and soft currency

hmmmmm sounds like a conspiracy aginast the American people?