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Originally Posted by stone

You should look into some of the most recent testing on critical defense. It failed fbi protocol, and regularly under penetrates. It also fails to open quite regularly. The reason critical duty was created was to meet all fbi standards. Which includes lots of different barriers. You seem to know your stuff, so I only bring this up due to the fact I was an early adopter of critical defense. After finding out how bad it performs sometimes I switched. Most of the time it performs great, but I want 100 percent reliability. If you want I could send you some ranger t, and HST. That way you could do some of your own testing and see the difference. There is so the new speer G2, that combines the hst, gold dot, and has a filled cavity like the critical defense. The first offerings to civilians has had some problems so I wouldn't buy any yet, but it is theoad the the fbi will be using when they go back to 9mm.

most of us dont need ammo that meets all fbi standards, but I want to always have the best I can to defend my family and loved ones. I will get the list and post it here of all the service caliber loads that regularly pass all fbi standards.

interesting, i just read an article that it was one of the best and passed all FBI protocols.

looked up the G2. i need a smaller grain bullet for more speed, check out the link below. they are too slow to expand out of a short barrel conceal gun. you can find someone who has a vid or article with just about any round doing well or failing. I will stick with the CD until i find definitive proof something is better.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...147-grain-jhp/

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Originally Posted by jipped genes

interesting, i just read an article that it was one of the best and passed all FBI protocols.

looked up the G2. i need a smaller grain bullet for more speed, check out the link below. they are too slow to expand out of a short barrel conceal gun. you can find someone who has a vid or article with just about any round doing well or failing. I will stick with the CD until i find definitive proof something is better.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...147-grain-jhp/

I will get you the info you need. With the newer bullets they do very well out of short barrels. Hst, ranger t and gold dots will get full expanssion out of sub compact pistols. The first thing I will post is a list of loads that regularly pass all protocol. Then I will get you info about critical duty. The G2 did really bad, but speer has been looking into it. Depending on caliber will make a difference, but ranger t, hst, ranger bonded, gold dot, and federal tactical bonded regularly pass fbi protocol.

TweetI REMEMBER THE BLACK TALONS WHEN THEY FIRST CAME OUT, THEY WERE CALLED "COP KILLERS"

TweetCheck out this link. I will vet the info up on critical defense as soon as I have a little more time.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....f-Defense-Ammo

this was written by DOC GKR (Dctor Gary K Roberts). If you look into him, he is the most well known terminal ballistics expert. He has an extensive background in the field of terminal balistics.

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Originally Posted by O2BESOHUGE

I REMEMBER THE BLACK TALONS WHEN THEY FIRST CAME OUT, THEY WERE CALLED "COP KILLERS"

People thought the black coating was made to pierce vests. Its just a lubricant, its called lubalox.

jipped genes my posts weren't meant to get you to change your carry load just to look into it. The truth is critical defense will probably work fine. I had a decent amount of it, but I sold most of it to fund other ammo.

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Originally Posted by stone

People thought the black coating was made to pierce vests. Its just a lubricant, its called lubalox.

jipped genes my posts weren't meant to get you to change your carry load just to look into it. The truth is critical defense will probably work fine. I had a decent amount of it, but I sold most of it to fund other ammo.

oh it's all good brother, if one gets offended on the internet then that person has probs. HAHA.

like i said i can find just as many articles that support crit defense. after my research it is why i chose it. critical duty over penetrates as it is made to penetrate cover. i am not a cop but work for the PD in my my town. i bullshit with the armorers they told me ballistics gel is fine but not real. no bones to hit. think about it. you are shooting center mass where there is a a bony plate and cartilage. he said find the round that fires well and accurately in your pistol and use it. forget the get tests.

a for the black talon, the dumbassery which for it taken off the market was epic. i had a box of 10mm black talon i sold last year for $50. the price on the box was $7.99 that is how old it was. back when i had my glock 20 hand cannon.
they still use the tech from those bullets in the core loct design from federal i think for for hunting.

honestly the new bullet tech today outshines the black talons by a long way

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Originally Posted by jipped genes

oh it's all good brother, if one gets offended on the internet then that person has probs. HAHA.

like i said i can find just as many articles that support crit defense. after my research it is why i chose it. critical duty over penetrates as it is made to penetrate cover. i am not a cop but work for the PD in my my town. i bullshit with the armorers they told me ballistics gel is fine but not real. no bones to hit. think about it. you are shooting center mass where there is a a bony plate and cartilage. he said find the round that fires well and accurately in your pistol and use it. forget the get tests.

a for the black talon, the dumbassery which for it taken off the market was epic. i had a box of 10mm black talon i sold last year for $50. the price on the box was $7.99 that is how old it was. back when i had my glock 20 hand cannon.
they still use the tech from those bullets in the core loct design from federal i think for for hunting.

honestly the new bullet tech today outshines the black talons by a long way

You brought uo my bjggest problem with gel. There are no bones, plus a body has organs of varrying density.

The new ranger t from winchester is the black talons that they have improved through about 5 different generations. Quite a few companies are using technology similar to core-lokt. Its a good way to keep a jacket from seperating without bonding it. I like bonded bullets for rifles, but in pistols I like the way the jacket opens on non bonded designs.

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Originally Posted by stone

You brought uo my bjggest problem with gel. There are no bones, plus a body has organs of varrying density.

The new ranger t from winchester is the black talons that they have improved through about 5 different generations. Quite a few companies are using technology similar to core-lokt. Its a good way to keep a jacket from seperating without bonding it. I like bonded bullets for rifles, but in pistols I like the way the jacket opens on non bonded designs.

agree. hit a lung and the bullet might just go right through as they are so delicate. same with the gut. nothing there but thin walls of stomach and intestine. and no bones.

anyway. i am happy they go boom every time. i have the old golden saber for my .380 and they do not expand 1/2 the time but that is OK as a .380 does not have the penetration of a 9mm. same with the .45. love the round but to get speeds to open up one must go with 160+- gr bullets to get the FPS to open and create a large wound cavity. most 230 grain self defense rounds tend to plow and not open in real world creating inferior penetration if they hit bone first. soft tissue they are all good.

.40 is a good compromise but the diminished capacity and rowdy recoil are downsides for me. that is why i stick with 9mm regualrly and .380 when i am in shorts and a t-shirt

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Originally Posted by jipped genes

agree. hit a lung and the bullet might just go right through as they are so delicate. same with the gut. nothing there but thin walls of stomach and intestine. and no bones.

anyway. i am happy they go boom every time. i have the old golden saber for my .380 and they do not expand 1/2 the time but that is OK as a .380 does not have the penetration of a 9mm. same with the .45. love the round but to get speeds to open up one must go with 160+- gr bullets to get the FPS to open and create a large wound cavity. most 230 grain self defense rounds tend to plow and not open in real world creating inferior penetration if they hit bone first. soft tissue they are all good.

.40 is a good compromise but the diminished capacity and rowdy recoil are downsides for me. that is why i stick with 9mm regualrly and .380 when i am in shorts and a t-shirt

With 45 and the new bullet technology they do very well. Not only in gel, but in real world situations. Check out the link I posted if you haven't already. I have spoken to the guy who created the list when he was a member of a forum I used to frequent. He has been a part of autopsies after Officer Involved Shootings, and he say that the new bullets perform almost the same as they do in gel. He said if they strike bone they do deform, but the performance is still much better than older bullets like silver tips.

I would rather carry fmj that was 100% reliable rather than expanding bullets that were less than 100% reliable. I also wont trust any firearm for carry unless I have had a chance to put 1000 trouble free rounds through it. 9mm is also my preferred round for carry. There is virtually no difference in the terminal performance of service caliber rounds. With the new bullet tech 9, 40, and 45 all cause about the same amount of damage. Even the fbi is gling back to 9, and 40 was there baby.

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Originally Posted by stone

With 45 and the new bullet technology they do very well. Not only in gel, but in real world situations. Check out the link I posted if you haven't already. I have spoken to the guy who created the list when he was a member of a forum I used to frequent. He has been a part of autopsies after Officer Involved Shootings, and he say that the new bullets perform almost the same as they do in gel. He said if they strike bone they do deform, but the performance is still much better than older bullets like silver tips.

I would rather carry fmj that was 100% reliable rather than expanding bullets that were less than 100% reliable. I also wont trust any firearm for carry unless I have had a chance to put 1000 trouble free rounds through it. 9mm is also my preferred round for carry. There is virtually no difference in the terminal performance of service caliber rounds. With the new bullet tech 9, 40, and 45 all cause about the same amount of damage. Even the fbi is gling back to 9, and 40 was there baby.

i will disagree with you on the performance of a smaller round that is moving faster and a larger round that is moving slower. i have been shot by a 7.62 round personally from about 75 yards away give or take and it almost put me on my face. granted i am a tad bit larger than a regular person but the damage that round caused was significant but not due to the actual damage cause by the bullets perm wound cavity but the temporary wound cavity. let's just put it this way, i was shot in the back in the lat and it ruined a bunch of stuff in my back arm and hand without even coming close to any of those areas. now also knowing people that have been shot by 5.56 and 9mm rounds and actually shooting people with those rounds, the damage is far far less significant. now of course i am speaking of fmj rounds and not expanding projectiles that are of course going to maximize on that perm wound cavity as well as slow down the larger slower rounds even more so. but for sake of myself and my opinion i would much rather carry a .45 over a 9 or 10mm any day and if i want a smaller round that still packs a punch i would opt for a .357. i just dont feel the 9mm carries enough behind it and if your not on the money with your kill shots in the chest, hip or head cavities you are still going to have a fight on your hands if that individual closes with you

Tweeti guess i should have also pointed out that we all have our prefs when it comes to what we like to use and carry, what loads we prefer and pretty much brand and all. what weapon performs well for me, everyone else may hate and vice versa. i formed most of my opinions off of seeing in person what my weapons were able to do and not do and i got some pretty strong opinions after that. i used to absolutely hate glocks and then did some cross training with a pb to attend their basic and advanced swat schools. after handling that weapon and seeing its performance, i gained a new respect for it. i am still a huge fan of 1911 syles because i have smaller hands but if you get sand in them or a bit of grit they will malfunction. the glock doesnt do that. one of our instructors at blackwater had put 100k rounds through his range pistol and never cleaned it one time. he had only lubed it. it would stick every now and then and that was the only issue he had up till that point. we take better care of our weapons than that but i always thought that was pretty cool

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Originally Posted by guns01

i will disagree with you on the performance of a smaller round that is moving faster and a larger round that is moving slower. i have been shot by a 7.62 round personally from about 75 yards away give or take and it almost put me on my face. granted i am a tad bit larger than a regular person but the damage that round caused was significant but not due to the actual damage cause by the bullets perm wound cavity but the temporary wound cavity. let's just put it this way, i was shot in the back in the lat and it ruined a bunch of stuff in my back arm and hand without even coming close to any of those areas. now also knowing people that have been shot by 5.56 and 9mm rounds and actually shooting people with those rounds, the damage is far far less significant. now of course i am speaking of fmj rounds and not expanding projectiles that are of course going to maximize on that perm wound cavity as well as slow down the larger slower rounds even more so. but for sake of myself and my opinion i would much rather carry a .45 over a 9 or 10mm any day and if i want a smaller round that still packs a punch i would opt for a .357. i just dont feel the 9mm carries enough behind it and if your not on the money with your kill shots in the chest, hip or head cavities you are still going to have a fight on your hands if that individual closes with you

Once you get into rifle calibers wounding capabilities are much different. My chlice for 9mm is a combination or control, capacity, and capability. Service caliber rounds wounding capabilities are virtually identical. A pistol bullet like 45 is going to cause a slightly bigger permanent cavity. Temporary stretch cavity is going to be meaningless in service caliber pistols.

Everyone has to carry what they feel comfortable with, and I carry 45acp sometimes. The wounding mechanism of the bullet can also change the amount of damage done. Whegher it be expansion or fragmenting. Once you get into rifles the discussion becomes much more complex. I will post a pic of what type of damage a very small rifle bullet can do.

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Originally Posted by guns01

i guess i should have also pointed out that we all have our prefs when it comes to what we like to use and carry, what loads we prefer and pretty much brand and all. what weapon performs well for me, everyone else may hate and vice versa. i formed most of my opinions off of seeing in person what my weapons were able to do and not do and i got some pretty strong opinions after that. i used to absolutely hate glocks and then did some cross training with a pb to attend their basic and advanced swat schools. after handling that weapon and seeing its performance, i gained a new respect for it. i am still a huge fan of 1911 syles because i have smaller hands but if you get sand in them or a bit of grit they will malfunction. the glock doesnt do that. one of our instructors at blackwater had put 100k rounds through his range pistol and never cleaned it one time. he had only lubed it. it would stick every now and then and that was the only issue he had up till that point. we take better care of our weapons than that but i always thought that was pretty cool

I used to hate glocks as well, but I went away from 1911's. If a part needs replacement in a 1911 it can be a *****, in a glock you pull it out and drop the new one in.

Guns and ammo discussions are similar to religion/politics. Everyone has their personal choice, and I will never knock them for that.