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      Default Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
      -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

      But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
      -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782


      Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
      -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

      Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
      -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

      The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
      -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

      Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
      -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

      My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built on the purest of all moral systems, for the purpose of deriving from it pence and power, revolts those who think for themselves, and who read in that system only what is really there.

      -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Mrs. Samuel H. Smith, August, 6, 1816

      Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.
      -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820

      And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
      -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

      As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
      -- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816


      Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires.
      -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, July 16, 1814, from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief


      Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it.
      -- John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816, from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

      Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?
      -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 19, 1821, from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief


      God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
      -- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

      The Treaty of Tripoli
      Signed by John Adams

      "As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
      "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
      -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, US Consul)


      "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." James Madison -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

      "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." James Madison -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches



      Benjamin Franklin quotes:

      "I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did."
      - letter to his father, 1738



      ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
      .


      "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
      - "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728
      .


      "I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Works, Vol. VII, p. 75
      .


      "If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."
      .


      "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -in Poor Richard's Almanac
      .


      "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -in Poor Richard's Almanac
      .


      "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
      .


      "I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."
      .


      "In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it."



      "It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      I agree with most of that also!

      The word “God” in the hebrew is “Elohim” and means “mighty ones”. Elsewhere in the Bible the word has been translated “angels” (see for example Psalm 8:5 and then the apostles Paul’s endorsement of that translation in Hebrews 2:7). So this tells us that man was created in the same shape as the angels. Men do not have wings. Therefore angels do not have wings.

      No where in the Bilbe does it say an angel has wings!!!

      there are many other creatures that did have wings that I think people thought were angles. IE ... cherubim
      What does the Bible teach about Cherubim then? We read of Cherubim in a number of places and they are described as having wings


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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Quote Originally Posted by BIGMOFO View Post
      I agree with most of that also!

      The word “God” in the hebrew is “Elohim” and means “mighty ones”. Elsewhere in the Bible the word has been translated “angels” (see for example Psalm 8:5 and then the apostles Paul’s endorsement of that translation in Hebrews 2:7). So this tells us that man was created in the same shape as the angels. Men do not have wings. Therefore angels do not have wings.

      No where in the Bilbe does it say an angel has wings!!!

      there are many other creatures that did have wings that I think people thought were angles. IE ... cherubim
      What does the Bible teach about Cherubim then? We read of Cherubim in a number of places and they are described as having wings

      Like I said,I belive that primitive mans depiction of flying people were based on some sort of reality.They drew what they saw so I do believe they SAW "flying" people and could only relate it to birds with wings so thats why they drew it.Im not just talking about the religious ideas people have of winged people,im talking about the countless paintings and drawings of these things.Where did primitive man get these ideas from to be able to draw them? Wasnt tv or movies.LOL

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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Quote Originally Posted by F.I.S.T. View Post
      Like I said,I belive that primitive mans depiction of flying people were based on some sort of reality.They drew what they saw so I do believe they SAW "flying" people and could only relate it to birds with wings so thats why they drew it.Im not just talking about the religious ideas people have of winged people,im talking about the countless paintings and drawings of these things.Where did primitive man get these ideas from to be able to draw them? Wasnt tv or movies.LOL
      i think that before Jesus came... there where more angels and also winged things people thought were angles and super nat things that went on, but after Jesus came its a matter of faith now. So i think people did paint what they saw and its just been passed down. not to say that you could not see one now, just not like back then.


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      Default

      Quote Originally Posted by F.I.S.T. View Post
      Oh I completely agree about mans creating many different Gods.I also dont believe in any one religion as being the "CORRECT" one.As I said,I keep an open mind to it all and although I do believe in a higher being,I dont believe in everything that man has written about these things.

      As for them accepting science,as like the many Gods that man has created and have come and gone,more so are the sceintific beliefs that have come and gone as being just plain crazy.Our founding fathers believed that hacking a mans leg off when he was shot was the right thing to do,and for the time many times it was.We have of course learned since than there are better ways to treat such injuries.So their beliefs on many things can be questionable in todays age.

      Their beliefs in not trustiing in man's governing over other men even back than can not be questioned however as their beliefs have proven themselves 100 fold today.
      You sound a bit like a deist yourself.

      What I meant about them being more scientific is that they valued logic, reason and rational thinking over superstition. Meaning that supernatural forces don't affect our lives including god, and that the world is a natural place w/o magic or superstition. I'm sure this is an over generalization but for the most part, they were educated scientific men who, knew all too well the problems w allowing a country to be ran be a particular religion.

      My entire point, is not to say these men did not believe in god, it's obvious they did; but many of them were not Christian and fought hard to make sure that Christians would not be able to write their religion into legislation.
      That's why I argue with someone who says "this is a Christian nation founded by Christian men."
      It's just flat out wrong.

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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Quote Originally Posted by exphys88 View Post
      You sound a bit like a deist yourself.

      What I meant about them being more scientific is that they valued logic, reason and rational thinking over superstition. Meaning that supernatural forces don't affect our lives including god, and that the world is a natural place w/o magic or superstition. I'm sure this is an over generalization but for the most part, they were educated scientific men who, knew all too well the problems w allowing a country to be ran be a particular religion.

      My entire point, is not to say these men did not believe in god, it's obvious they did; but many of them were not Christian and fought hard to make sure that Christians would not be able to write their religion into legislation.
      That's why I argue with someone who says "this is a Christian nation founded by Christian men."
      It's just flat out wrong.

      No,im not a deist as I would not say Jesus did not exist.I am a realist though as I do try to base my opinions on the facts or on what makes more wense when enough facts are not available.

      I agree that saying a nation is founded by Christian men is not wrong in a sense as it was formed by men and women of many releigious beliefs.I think the word "CHRISTIAN" was just used as it is and was such a huge religious following and had much influence throughout history good and bad depending.

      I just believe in both science and religion and never rule out either ideas as being the answer to the un-answerable questions.I also believe to be fully whole and the best person you can be to yourself and others you have to have a certain amount of faith and not just be the byproduct of what you can prove.

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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Quote Originally Posted by F.I.S.T. View Post
      No,im not a deist as I would not say Jesus did not exist.I am a realist though as I do try to base my opinions on the facts or on what makes more wense when enough facts are not available.

      I agree that saying a nation is founded by Christian men is not wrong in a sense as it was formed by men and women of many releigious beliefs.I think the word "CHRISTIAN" was just used as it is and was such a huge religious following and had much influence throughout history good and bad depending.

      I just believe in both science and religion and never rule out either ideas as being the answer to the un-answerable questions.I also believe to be fully whole and the best person you can be to yourself and others you have to have a certain amount of faith and not just be the byproduct of what you can prove.
      deists do not say jesus did not exist, they question that he was the son of god. Even muslims don't question that jesus existed, nor jews, they just say he was not divine. Just one of the amazing people to have amazing ideas. Thomas Jefferson felt the same way, that's why he rewrote the bible to have all of jesus' teachings, he just ommitted the magical, divinity crap.

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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Quote Originally Posted by exphys88 View Post
      deists do not say jesus did not exist, they question that he was the son of god. Even muslims don't question that jesus existed, nor jews, they just say he was not divine. Just one of the amazing people to have amazing ideas. Thomas Jefferson felt the same way, that's why he rewrote the bible to have all of jesus' teachings, he just ommitted the magical, divinity crap.
      Wel first,id like to say that just because your closed mind does not allow you to believe in anythung that someone in a lab coat cannot prove does not mean its crap.People who do not beleive what you believe are not crap.

      Secondly,it doesnt matter what religious group does not believe Jesus was not devine.Billions of people in many many religions do.The ones that fit into your beliefs or anyone elses,including Thomas Jefferson, have no more proof of whats true than anyone else does.Thats where faith comes into play.

      As I said before,to me saying I believe in God but not in Jesus is contradictory.But again,thats just MAN trying to put his own beliefs into religion.

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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Quote Originally Posted by F.I.S.T. View Post
      Wel first,id like to say that just because your closed mind does not allow you to believe in anythung that someone in a lab coat cannot prove does not mean its crap.People who do not beleive what you believe are not crap.

      Secondly,it doesnt matter what religious group does not believe Jesus was not devine.Billions of people in many many religions do.The ones that fit into your beliefs or anyone elses,including Thomas Jefferson, have no more proof of whats true than anyone else does.Thats where faith comes into play.

      As I said before,to me saying I believe in God but not in Jesus is contradictory.But again,thats just MAN trying to put his own beliefs into religion.
      billions of others in different religions do not believe jesus was divine, lol. If they did, that would make them christians, and not of their religion. lol at this comment. the world is made up of 70% nonchristian, meaning 70% of the world does not believe jesus is the son of god.

      Your statement about believing in god and not in jesus is contradictory illustrates your lack of understanding of world religions. Most of the world believes in god, but don't believe that jesus is his son. you do know that before jesus was born, people believed in god right? when jesus came and claimed to be the son, only some people believed him. Why do you have to believe in jesus in order to believe in god?

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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Quote Originally Posted by exphys88 View Post
      billions of others in different religions do not believe jesus was divine, lol. If they did, that would make them christians, and not of their religion. lol at this comment. the world is made up of 70% nonchristian, meaning 70% of the world does not believe jesus is the son of god.

      Your statement about believing in god and not in jesus is contradictory illustrates your lack of understanding of world religions. Most of the world believes in god, but don't believe that jesus is his son. you do know that before jesus was born, people believed in god right? when jesus came and claimed to be the son, only some people believed him. Why do you have to believe in jesus in order to believe in god?

      You're 100% incorrect.Catholics believe Jesus is the son of God.As well as Protestants as well as Mormons and I can go on.Its you who do not know about religion.I know many people of many different religions and the only ones I know of who do not believe that Jesus is the son of God are the Jews.

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      Quote Originally Posted by BIGMOFO View Post
      i think that before Jesus came... there where more angels and also winged things people thought were angles and super nat things that went on, but after Jesus came its a matter of faith now. So i think people did paint what they saw and its just been passed down. not to say that you could not see one now, just not like back then.
      Or, angels are just imaginary...

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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Quote Originally Posted by exphys88 View Post
      Or, angels are just imaginary...

      I just think what people think of Angels is imaginary.There has to be some basis of truth in their creation.

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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Quote Originally Posted by F.I.S.T. View Post
      I just think what people think of Angels is imaginary.There has to be some basis of truth in their creation.
      Or, they could be completely fiction considering there is zero evidence of them.

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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Quote Originally Posted by exphys88 View Post
      Or, they could be completely fiction considering there is zero evidence of them.

      Completely wrong.The evidence is in the exact painting and drawings that have been found.They were trying to describe something correct? You can't imagine something that you know nothing about.Primitive people drew and painted and carved what they saw,nothing more.Soooooooooooo,these things were based on SOMETHING of fact.The problem that you have believing is that there is no actual "sceintific" study on it.Unfortunately there were no scientists when these things were made so the only evidence is what we find.

      The pyramids have all sorts of drawings and paintings on them.Can we prove what these apintings depict were factual? No,but we take these things as the PROOF of historical records.

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      Default Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Deist?

      Quote Originally Posted by F.I.S.T. View Post
      Completely wrong.The evidence is in the exact painting and drawings that have been found.They were trying to describe something correct? You can't imagine something that you know nothing about.Primitive people drew and painted and carved what they saw,nothing more.Soooooooooooo,these things were based on SOMETHING of fact.The problem that you have believing is that there is no actual "sceintific" study on it.Unfortunately there were no scientists when these things were made so the only evidence is what we find.

      The pyramids have all sorts of drawings and paintings on them.Can we prove what these apintings depict were factual? No,but we take these things as the PROOF of historical records.
      so, everything ever drawn has to be real? I can draw all sorts of things that I've never seen and it doesn't make them real. It's not a stretch to put wings on people considering there were birds and humans. Are you being serious?

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