Patriot Act extended

[JsJs24]

Re: Patriot Act extended

js, they charge for bag and cut meals because it is the free market at work

the combo is derugulation + investment capital + the internet + 9-11 + rising expense over a 30 year time frame

I understand that they can charge whatever they want Trip, that wasn't my point. In a competitive environment and during tough financial times for many people it is not in their best interest to have to raise prices and add new charges. Less people travel by air when prices increase. People think airline travel is up because planes are always full these days but that is not correct. The seats are full because they are flying less flights. Airline travel has increased the past couple years but is still down from 2008 pre-recession levels.

Why would you think they wanted to cut meals and charge for bags? And why do you say it is because of the free market? First of all we don't have a free market. A free market it one without government intervention. What we have is a heavily regulated form of capitalism. And the reason the airlines charge for bags and cut meals is because of government intervention, primarily security measures from post 9-11. The charges for bags and cut meals all occurred shortly after the attacks. I hope you realize we don't have a free market here Trip. That is a grave misconception by a lot of liberal Democrats who like to blame everything on the free market. Almost every bad episode in our market can be traced back to government intervention.

[trip]

Re: Patriot Act extended

js, they charge for bag and cut meals because it is the free market at work

the combo is derugulation + investment capital + the internet + 9-11 + rising expense over a 30 year time frame

[JsJs24]

Re: Patriot Act extended

imho, it's more politics on a global/grander scale

imho, they have always been talking about this stuff, but once terror was struck as the theme, the majority votes one way, never reads details of bill, totally understands it

then the money gets distributed so it benefits the majority of congress's districts, now an incentive is always present

and then it continues because very limited blowback, and thus another govt program is set in motion

imho, we are in the phase of insiders using it to there advantage, and i'm not saying maliciously

i'm sure the airlines are all for it all, it makes there product safer with less and less liability, thus i'm sure they lobby for it

stuff like this makes me sad, at times, maybe i had childish believes, i just thought as a whole we were better than stuff like this

I doubt the airlines are for it because it costs them money to fund increased security. That's why they have to charge for bags and cut meals, etc.

[trip]

Re: Patriot Act extended

imho, it's more politics on a global/grander scale

imho, they have always been talking about this stuff, but once terror was struck as the theme, the majority votes one way, never reads details of bill, totally understands it

then the money gets distributed so it benefits the majority of congress's districts, now an incentive is always present

and then it continues because very limited blowback, and thus another govt program is set in motion

imho, we are in the phase of insiders using it to there advantage, and i'm not saying maliciously

i'm sure the airlines are all for it all, it makes there product safer with less and less liability, thus i'm sure they lobby for it

stuff like this makes me sad, at times, maybe i had childish believes, i just thought as a whole we were better than stuff like this

[JsJs24]

Re: Patriot Act extended

Youre right, hardly anyone seems to care. Thats the scary part. You cant open a bank account now without a social security number, thanks to the patriot act. Now the government can monitor ever dollar you bank and all your purchases. I guess if you dont care, its no big deal.

Yes, along with many other invasions of our privacy. People don't care because people don't know any better. We are not taught the importance of freedom and how easily it can be lost in schools so we have to learn on our own through reading and researching. Additionally, most people naively believe tyranny could never come to our land. Well, that's funny, I bet the Germans never expected it there either. We lose our liberties through silent and incremental encroachments, which almost always end up occurring during wars. How better a time to convince people to give up liberties than when in fear from being attacked. Yet what is sad is that we are not in danger of being attacked, with the exception of a terrorist attack every decade or so, but most of those cannot be stopped. You can't expect the government to be able to foil every single attack. However, attacks from real military we do not have to worry about.

The primary reason most are so gullible and passive is because they believe everything the government tells them. Even though we have seen time and time again that the government cannot be trusted, and that most of them are corrupt, still the people believe every word they say. We have a two party system for the most part, or at least for sure with regard to holding political office. One party, the Democrats, tends to support big government and respectfully admits doing so. Conversely, we have the Republican Party which claims to support a limited government, yet they really support big government just like the Democrats but refuse to admit it. There is a minority of Republican voters and a few politicians that do indeed support a limited government, but by far they are not the norm. It's as if Republicans forgot what limited government means.

I fear our liberties being lost because people don't seem to get it. They still support their party regardless of how many times the party lets them down. They don't seem to think that maybe the Party is the problem, and those in it need to be replaced. They don't realize that with a few exceptions there are no major differences between a Democrat and Republican President. And even more absurd is the fact that Republicans have outspent Democrats every time since FDR left office. So much for limited government. I bring up this fact often but I don't think anyone really considers how important it is for understanding that the party does not stand for limited government. And now they had the chance to put up a fight over the Patriot Act and failed to do so. Thus again I contend there is no major difference between the two. Nor has the Republican's control of the house done any good for the Party. Boehner is probably the worst Speaker of the House in my life time. The guy has no fight in him, nor does he appear to be concerned for our rights. He is the typical bought and paid for politician who talks a good game and never follows through.

The one question I have that I cannot figure out is why Republicans are so harsh on those of us who believe in limited government. Why is Ron Paul singled out so often when he is just trying to support what many of the founders supported, a limited government. Why do voters single out conservative Libertarians for similar reasons. Is it not a case of being hypocrites when you say you're for limited government but support the exact opposite and then criticize those who support it. I think the answer to my question might be that most Americans these days like things for free regardless of their status in life. Everybody has their own personal favorites when it comes to government funded programs. So when it comes to reducing the size of government it means a reduction in spending, which requires a reduction in government programs, which most Americans are never willing to accept. Nobody wants to see Medicare cut, or Social Security, or federal education, or firefighters, or teachers, or military, etc. Therefore, nobody agrees on what needs to be cut except that it has to be something they don't like, which some other voter does like. As a result, the politicians have to please as many voters as possible so they just don't cut anything and instead increase the amount of spending to make more people vote for them. This sort of system cannot work. Eventually we will go broke, regardless of Trip's understanding of the numbers. When you continue to fund the amount of social programs that our country does you end up broke. But we face two serious problems: 1. The loss of liberties at a steady pace until we are living as serfs; 2. A massive national debt and exploding annual deficits which will result in a bankrupt nation.

[Dzone]

Re: Patriot Act extended

Youre right, hardly anyone seems to care. Thats the scary part. You cant open a bank account now without a social security number, thanks to the patriot act. Now the government can monitor ever dollar you bank and all your purchases. I guess if you dont care, its no big deal.

[JsJs24]

First of all, the name of this act is a classic example Orwellian doublespeak. Anyone who thinks it is patriotic to give up important individual liberties does not know anything about patriotism or liberty. Apparently nobody in the senate seems to mind trampling on our rights except one Senator. It was none other than Rand Paul who held up the vote in an effort to pass some amendments to restrict the rights infringements of the act. Yet he was shut down like anyone would be for standing up for Americans' rights. One of the amendments Paul proposed was to restrict the government from obtaining gun-ownership records of law-abiding citizens. Good for Paul for attempting to protect our liberties. But bad on the worthless NRA who once again failed to stand up for Americans' rights, this time gun rights. They sent letters to lawmakers saying they were not taking a position. This is just one more example of why I cancelled my membership with the corrupt and pathetic NRA. Too bad more people don't do the same thing. I urge current NRA members who are concerned for our liberties to consider dropping the NRA and signing up with GOA (Gun Owners of America). I became a proud member of the GOA last year and will never return to the NRA.

Back to the Patriot Act. For those who always like to use the lame argument that if you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't mind the Patriot Act, well, to those people I believe you have the wrong understanding of what liberties are and how critical it is to preserve them. That is always the argument by big government supporting Americans, both Democrat and Republican. The people who believe this never take into consideration the fact that during every war we lose more of our liberties which are never to be returned. And the founders warned of this too. The Patriot Act could very possibly end up being the most important act that destroys the rest of our freedoms. Already it is being used for other law enforcement activities which have nothing to do with the war, but again, hardly anyone seems to care. It's sad how all the government has to do is convince us that in order to remain safe here at home we must give up our essential liberties, more specifically in this case, those guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. The 4th Amendment used to mean something to most Americans, but now it is gone and all too many are supporting the loss of it with open arms.