A mosque at Ground Zero...

[FUZO]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Its disgusting and I know there good muslims but you cant have a president a usa president want something to be built by people who did this to us. And the guy trying to get this done this muslim is a peice of shit . Its so unamerican of this scum bag president to want this built. But did you see how he now has changed his tune and said something different now. This is all back firing in his face and he and the dems are finished.

[rc10j1]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Throughout history, whenever the Muslims conquered a country they tore down landmarks and built a mosque in it's place. This is what is happening in New York.

[JsJs24]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Ok, I hear what you guys are talking about now.

"The United States returned the exiled Shah to Iran, where he ruled with an iron fist for more than a quarter century. Tens of thousands of dissidents were tortured and murdered by his dreaded SAVAK secret police, organized and trained by the United States. The repression was largely successful in wiping out the democratic opposition. The SAVAK was less successful in infiltrating religious institutions, however, so when the revolution finally took place, toppling the Shah in 1979, the formerly secular Iran came under the leadership of virulently reactionary and anti-American Islamists."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0210-07.htm

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/the_west/

Correct, and thank Jimmy Carter for that one.

[FUZO]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

War is always going to happen and politicians are always going to be involved and soldiers will die thats just how its been,is it right,NO but its war.Do we fight to defend our country,YES when does it stop,probably never. Presidents have to do certian things whether its right or wrong. When will wars stop,NEVER unless we kill the entire planet

[straydoglogic]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

This is what my problem was for several years. I would take what I heard from the talking heads on Fox and CNN or whatever it was at the time and build my opinion from that. But most of the idiots on those news shows are merely talking heads with no real expertise in anything. The only books they ever read or support are books from more talking heads. The best thing any American can do is to get educated with as much history and economics as they can. People need to read real books by credible authors who are experts in their field of study, not books by Beck, Rove, Hannity, etc. Sure its okay to read some of their books, but at least read a real book first. The political talking heads are entertaining to listen to but none of them are experts in subjects that matter. Heck, the other day Sean Hannity (whom I do like) mispronounced Keynes and sounded as if he did not know who he was, which by the way if people are not aware of who Keynes is then they have a lot to learn.

An interesting fact is that the very countries we helped years ago, we find ourselves fighting today. Why is it always on land that is rich in oil and never in places like North Korea or parts of Africa. Heck, Somalia killed off our troops in a bloodshed and yet we did nothing to retaliate. The fact is they are all poor countries that have nothing to offer. I served in Korea back in 2002 and learned a great deal about the north while there. That madman Kim has got to be far worse than any of the middle eastern countries as far as dictators are concerned and he has nukes. Isn't it funny that the very reason we are in Iraq and contemplating going into Iran is over Nukes, yet Kim in N. Korea has nukes already and we never stopped him from building them nor are we trying to disarm him. Oil is the answer, and sadly U.S. troops are being killed along with hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis and Afghanis. But the larger American public seems to justify the death of innocent civilians because it is an unfortunate circumstance to ending a bigger problem. Okay, I get it, I was preached that crap while active duty. But when does it stop? How many more innocent people and children are going to lose their lives because of some greedy politicians and big business oil companies as well as the banking cartels? Why do Americans continue to fall for this bs year after year, that we are closer and closer to winning. That is nonsense. They have finally created the perfect war, one which can last potentially forever. And what happens during wars??? People give in to the government taking their liberties in the name of preventing terrorism. Examples are the warrant-less wire tapping, the Patriaot Act, and body scanners at airports; all of which are unconstitutional on all grounds, yet because we have been scared into believing the threat we have allowed them to take our liberties. War is the means of taking liberties via fear tactics and this one will take more.

Amen!

[Dzone]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Ok, I hear what you guys are talking about now.

"The United States returned the exiled Shah to Iran, where he ruled with an iron fist for more than a quarter century. Tens of thousands of dissidents were tortured and murdered by his dreaded SAVAK secret police, organized and trained by the United States. The repression was largely successful in wiping out the democratic opposition. The SAVAK was less successful in infiltrating religious institutions, however, so when the revolution finally took place, toppling the Shah in 1979, the formerly secular Iran came under the leadership of virulently reactionary and anti-American Islamists."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0210-07.htm

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/the_west/

[JsJs24]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Indeed, the terrorists were pawns of a mastermind that are fighting us for different reasons than religion. My opinions are probably based on the inadequate and inaccurate info being fed to us anyway. Its easy to just look at the surface and say "Oh they hate us because of their religion", without stopping to look at the full picture, including the history behind the situation.

This is what my problem was for several years. I would take what I heard from the talking heads on Fox and CNN or whatever it was at the time and build my opinion from that. But most of the idiots on those news shows are merely talking heads with no real expertise in anything. The only books they ever read or support are books from more talking heads. The best thing any American can do is to get educated with as much history and economics as they can. People need to read real books by credible authors who are experts in their field of study, not books by Beck, Rove, Hannity, etc. Sure its okay to read some of their books, but at least read a real book first. The political talking heads are entertaining to listen to but none of them are experts in subjects that matter. Heck, the other day Sean Hannity (whom I do like) mispronounced Keynes and sounded as if he did not know who he was, which by the way if people are not aware of who Keynes is then they have a lot to learn.

An interesting fact is that the very countries we helped years ago, we find ourselves fighting today. Why is it always on land that is rich in oil and never in places like North Korea or parts of Africa. Heck, Somalia killed off our troops in a bloodshed and yet we did nothing to retaliate. The fact is they are all poor countries that have nothing to offer. I served in Korea back in 2002 and learned a great deal about the north while there. That madman Kim has got to be far worse than any of the middle eastern countries as far as dictators are concerned and he has nukes. Isn't it funny that the very reason we are in Iraq and contemplating going into Iran is over Nukes, yet Kim in N. Korea has nukes already and we never stopped him from building them nor are we trying to disarm him. Oil is the answer, and sadly U.S. troops are being killed along with hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis and Afghanis. But the larger American public seems to justify the death of innocent civilians because it is an unfortunate circumstance to ending a bigger problem. Okay, I get it, I was preached that crap while active duty. But when does it stop? How many more innocent people and children are going to lose their lives because of some greedy politicians and big business oil companies as well as the banking cartels? Why do Americans continue to fall for this bs year after year, that we are closer and closer to winning. That is nonsense. They have finally created the perfect war, one which can last potentially forever. And what happens during wars??? People give in to the government taking their liberties in the name of preventing terrorism. Examples are the warrant-less wire tapping, the Patriaot Act, and body scanners at airports; all of which are unconstitutional on all grounds, yet because we have been scared into believing the threat we have allowed them to take our liberties. War is the means of taking liberties via fear tactics and this one will take more.

[Dzone]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Indeed, the terrorists were pawns of a mastermind that are fighting us for different reasons than religion. My opinions are probably based on the inadequate and inaccurate info being fed to us anyway. Its easy to just look at the surface and say "Oh they hate us because of their religion", without stopping to look at the full picture, including the history behind the situation.

[JsJs24]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

I'm sorry D, but I have to respectfully disagree. Of course the pawns in the chess game were willing to die for their religion, however, the masterminds of the attacks are fighting for other reasons as well. Look at our history in dealing with Iran, and Saddam, and yes, Bin Laden as well. You have to research the history and realize that having and interventionist foreign policy is what led to the hatred of our country. Do you realize that Baghdad was once a travel destination by the western world? When a government goes on killing thousands of people for a half a century, it's going to lead to hatred. And it also begs the question. As horrific as 9/11 was, where 3000 innocent Americans were killed, it is an abomination, but when our government kills thousands of them for 50 years, it is just something that had to be done. I hear people say, " just nuke the place, turn it to a sheet of glass!". How is that any different. Wanting to kill of an entire group of people, commit genocide. Why is it different when our people say and think these things than when they do? I don't want to get into an ugly debate, just a friendly conversation with opposing points of view. I'm just saying that history explains a lot. Not just religious ideology.

You are correct sir. If people would take the time to learn the history of what we have been doing in the middle east, they should realize that we have built up a hatred for America by constantly attacking these countries. If we used a non-interventionist war policy as the founders believed in, then we would not be in this mess. The sad thing about many Republicans today is that most of them buy into the propaganda bs that is being used to convince us of the war. I used to believe it myself until we continued for so long and things stopped making since anymore. And for the record, I have been to the war 6 times on 4 month deployments to both Iraq and Afghanistan in a surveillance/mission intelligence unit. The war is never going to end I'm afraid. There is no clear objective either. Before I came to my senses and started learning more about middle eastern affairs, I openly supported this madness. And of course, after the 9-11 attack I supported going into Afghanistan and still think that was the right thing to do. However, the goal was supposedly to get Bin Laden, which hasn't happened and doesn't even rank very high anymore on the list of priorities. I believe Ron Paul is the bests source to listen to in regard to the war, but no other Republicans care to hear from a man of his intellect and knowledge on history. We have killed over 1 million people in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I would think that alone would make Americans sick of the war. Many of them are innocent people getting killed. I have seen it with my own eyes, it happens, and its sad. Yes there are bad people over there that hate us but we can never kill them all. We are fighting an ideology, and a ticked off country that is sick of having us over there. Why can't people try and imagine what it would be like here if some other countries said bad groups of terrorists were in our land and then they came to fight on our soil. That wouldn't go over too well. I don't know why we don't just get out of those countries and focus on homeland security. The wars will break us financially eventually. You can't continue to spend this much money when we are in the debt we are in. But people have no clue about economics and think we are never going to go broke. Well, watch and see if we don't change our way because it will happen. And where are all of the anti-war protesters now that Obama is in office? They are nowhere to be found, thus it is safe to say the protests were always set up by higher powers and were purely political. Now that there man is in office they are no longer opposed to the war. The whole mess is pathetic and I only hope how soon it can all be over. The Republican Party needs to go back to their roots and the beliefs of the founding fathers, which was a non-interventionist war policy. The founding fathers, especially Thomas Jefferson, were adamantly against nation building and interventionist policies.

[straydoglogic]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Yes, I agree with you. I should have clarified that. Yes, I also agree with you on the religion issue. It is very scary what people will do in the name of some religion that was completely man made. You see it in all religions. Mankind has been inventing religions since the beginning of time to deal with the issue of death , to control people, to explain why we are here, etc.

Now there's a post that I wholeheartedly agree with!

[straydoglogic]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

yes religion has caused much pain and suffering. Islam being the absolute, and by far, the most horrific.

Well, this can be debated for sure. You are right when it comes to the modern age. But lest we forget the crusades, the inquisition etc. Wars have been waged in the name of religion since inception, but I would be inclined to disagree that historically speaking, Islam has been the most violent. Certainly it has though throughout modern history. I'm trying to remember though when the last war was waged by Buddhist or Hindus..lol It's the 3 monotheistic that are the most violent.

[Dzone]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

D, you have to realize that it's not ALL muslims that feel this way. I fought side by side in the war with muslims. We had officers and Marine advisers that were muslim. Every religion has radical extremist groups within them. We are fighting radical islamic extremists, not your every day average muslim. There's a huge difference. And this is one of the reason why I find religion to be such a horrifying thing. People are willing to kill each other and feel the need to either convert them or wipe them from the Earth, because of an ideological belief system. Man it scares me.

Yes, I agree with you. I should have clarified that. Yes, I also agree with you on the religion issue. It is very scary what people will do in the name of some religion that was completely man made. You see it in all religions. Mankind has been inventing religions since the beginning of time to deal with the issue of death , to control people, to explain why we are here, etc.

[straydoglogic]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

We were attacked by terrorists who believed they were fulfilling the will of allah and they were willing to die for their religion, knowing that they were going to be with 21 virgins in the afterlife, etc etc . That attack was a RELIGIOUS act

I'm sorry D, but I have to respectfully disagree. Of course the pawns in the chess game were willing to die for their religion, however, the masterminds of the attacks are fighting for other reasons as well. Look at our history in dealing with Iran, and Saddam, and yes, Bin Laden as well. You have to research the history and realize that having and interventionist foreign policy is what led to the hatred of our country. Do you realize that Baghdad was once a travel destination by the western world? When a government goes on killing thousands of people for a half a century, it's going to lead to hatred. And it also begs the question. As horrific as 9/11 was, where 3000 innocent Americans were killed, it is an abomination, but when our government kills thousands of them for 50 years, it is just something that had to be done. I hear people say, " just nuke the place, turn it to a sheet of glass!". How is that any different. Wanting to kill of an entire group of people, commit genocide. Why is it different when our people say and think these things than when they do? I don't want to get into an ugly debate, just a friendly conversation with opposing points of view. I'm just saying that history explains a lot. Not just religious ideology.

[horsepwr]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

But mark my words. If this Mosque is built on site. And as the face of Islamic radicals turns more white. The face of jihad will begin to blend in with a southern Baptist at a much more rapid pace than already happening now.
Just watch.

[horsepwr]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

and yes, there are decent Muslims, as with most any religion. But the face of terror, and the most horrific attacks, most attacks period, is the face of Islamic Muslims.