A mosque at Ground Zero...

[JsJs24]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Are you guys aware that the STATE DEPARTMENT SENT THIS IMAM WHO IS THE GUY BEHIND TH E MOSQUE TO THE MIDDLE EAST ON A RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE TRIP??????PAID FOR BY TAXES!!!!!!!!HE IS A FKING CELEBRITY OVER THERE AND WE SENT HIM

Yes sir, I'm aware of that. I just wish they would drop the whole issue. If there wasn't so much attention focused on this there wouldn't be an issue here. Heck, it probably wouldn't even be built. What is interesting though is that there has been a mosque located 2 blocks from ground zero for more than 20 years, but nobody mentions that fact. Also, there are more than a hundred mosques already in NYC. The mosque will not be built though, he is going to either cash in on selling the land for a high profit, or nobody will build it for him. That's my thoughts anyway.

[Dzone]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Are you guys aware that the STATE DEPARTMENT SENT THIS IMAM WHO IS THE GUY BEHIND TH E MOSQUE TO THE MIDDLE EAST ON A RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE TRIP??????PAID FOR BY TAXES!!!!!!!!HE IS A FKING CELEBRITY OVER THERE AND WE SENT HIM

[horsepwr]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

very good post and observation of the high court JsJs. That is the justice system summed up in a nutshell.

[JsJs24]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Exactly. After reading his point of view on things. We wouldn't even have the concerns we have now, because Jefferson went hard for liberty and believed in freedom so strongly. I mean, just imagine him with the knowledge that enemies of our freedoms are in the country. Think about his strong held beliefs. What he stood for, and the ways he knew that we could only maintain our sovereign rights.
The news would be so different. And I would be so much happier. Everyone that stood proud for a free America, and above all, our own sovereign liberty, would be in power.
These Anthony Weiners of the government, and other Kennedy/FDR/Marx nut lickers would just have a short mention on the news. which is more than they deserve.
I would enjoy the take-back. All those politically correct, spineless, assbackwards assholes would be sent packing. And hopefully, they will be.

^ridiculous. That's the stuff that makes me sick to my stomach.

Also keep in mind that had Jefferson been present during the drafting of the Constitution he would have fought hard for term limits. That alone would have prevented most of the problems of our corrupt government officials. I don't think many people realize that some of the very founders who helped write our Constitution were power hungry and hell bent on federal power. Why else would they have all three branches of government permitted to have a say in each branch's business? Also, why would they have allowed lifetime judicial appointments, which to make things worse, are chosen by the president, instead of a voting process or by congress or the senate. The lack of term limits and the lifetime judicial appointments is how this country will ultimately turn to despotism. The Supreme Court is only one seat away from a majority in either direction. If one single conservative retires or dies while Obama is in office it will become a left wing leaning Court. The whole Supreme Court idea disgusts me to tell you the truth. Think about it; they each rule with their own biases, instead of actually interpreting the laws for what they mean. There is no confusion on our Constitution, but let a panel of expert former lawyers have the say so and low and behold we have a complicated Constitution that requires the great Supreme Court judges to interpret. Everyone of those judges is pro-big government. I don't care whether they are conservatives or liberals, they all support big government either to the right or to the left.

[horsepwr]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

I understand your point now. I agree that things would be different. Jefferson would have made immigration policies stricter in my opinion. That is the problem with immigration. We are allowing too many people from third world countries to come to America. The problem with that is most of them have nothing to offer the U.S. to strengthen our economy. They are mostly mooches who come here to take advantage of our welfare state benefits we so gladly give out. And if we desire to know what America will look like in another 50 years, just look at the border towns. They trash America and create an eyesore of what was once beautiful land. The same would hold true if a wealthy gated community allowed poor people on welfare to move into their neighborhood in masses. The nice gated community would turn into a dump, because most of the poorer people don't take care of there homes and property. At least, those on welfare. There are exceptions but most of the people on welfare assistance are of the lazy type that expect something for nothing. This is happening in my area of Las Vegas. Our nicer neighborhoods have growing crime rates, trash is piling up, and graffiti is a common site, even in gated communities. It is disgusting but that's what happens when you allow mass groups of people from third world to come to a wealthier nation. .

Exactly. After reading his point of view on things. We wouldn't even have the concerns we have now, because Jefferson went hard for liberty and believed in freedom so strongly. I mean, just imagine him with the knowledge that enemies of our freedoms are in the country. Think about his strong held beliefs. What he stood for, and the ways he knew that we could only maintain our sovereign rights.
The news would be so different. And I would be so much happier. Everyone that stood proud for a free America, and above all, our own sovereign liberty, would be in power.
These Anthony Weiners of the government, and other Kennedy/FDR/Marx nut lickers would just have a short mention on the news. which is more than they deserve.
I would enjoy the take-back. All those politically correct, spineless, assbackwards assholes would be sent packing. And hopefully, they will be.

You see, it used to be that those who lived on welfare had to live in government projects, but now they simply get a check and are free to live anywhere they like so long as the landlord will accept hud tenants. I rent out my condo and had a lady ask if I accepted hud. Well, I don't and for good reason. I have heard from others who have rented to people on hud that in many instances their homes got trashed, but there money was on time of course, thanks to uncle Sam. What really ticked me off was that the lady on hud had a 2 year old and herself, yet the government was giving her around $980 per month, which she told me was going to go up at the next fiscal year (2 years ago) to $1,015 approximately. I was only asking $950.00 for my condo but she offered to give it all to me because it was use or lose. Sickening! Get off your rear and get a job. When I was active duty I only received $780.00 per month for housing (2005 year). Thus, welfare people are getting more money than active duty military.

^ridiculous. That's the stuff that makes me sick to my stomach.

[FUZO]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

I beleive in my heart that if they get thismpassed that someone will blow up that building. I try to see why people would want this and I came to the conclusion that these pewoples beleifs are so far gone they dont know whats right or wrong.Its a sickness. And if anyone doesnt think this scum bag president isnt a muslim please educate your self on his past. The bible says and this is true after 3-1/2 years in office he gets impeached thats what the bible says I'm not making this up

[JsJs24]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

only they were in office during this time of reckless tyrant wannabes.
This thread would never even be. That's just what I believe.

I understand your point now. I agree that things would be different. Jefferson would have made immigration policies stricter in my opinion. That is the problem with immigration. We are allowing too many people from third world countries to come to America. The problem with that is most of them have nothing to offer the U.S. to strengthen our economy. They are mostly mooches who come here to take advantage of our welfare state benefits we so gladly give out. And if we desire to know what America will look like in another 50 years, just look at the border towns. They trash America and create an eyesore of what was once beautiful land. The same would hold true if a wealthy gated community allowed poor people on welfare to move into their neighborhood in masses. The nice gated community would turn into a dump, because most of the poorer people don't take care of there homes and property. At least, those on welfare. There are exceptions but most of the people on welfare assistance are of the lazy type that expect something for nothing. This is happening in my area of Las Vegas. Our nicer neighborhoods have growing crime rates, trash is piling up, and graffiti is a common site, even in gated communities. It is disgusting but that's what happens when you allow mass groups of people from third world to come to a wealthier nation.

You see, it used to be that those who lived on welfare had to live in government projects, but now they simply get a check and are free to live anywhere they like so long as the landlord will accept hud tenants. I rent out my condo and had a lady ask if I accepted hud. Well, I don't and for good reason. I have heard from others who have rented to people on hud that in many instances their homes got trashed, but there money was on time of course, thanks to uncle Sam. What really ticked me off was that the lady on hud had a 2 year old and herself, yet the government was giving her around $980 per month, which she told me was going to go up at the next fiscal year (2 years ago) to $1,015 approximately. I was only asking $950.00 for my condo but she offered to give it all to me because it was use or lose. Sickening! Get off your rear and get a job. When I was active duty I only received $780.00 per month for housing (2005 year). Thus, welfare people are getting more money than active duty military.

[horsepwr]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Horsepwr, you may be correct here, but only in part. Jefferson is my favorite president, and one whom I study immensely. He was a Libertarian in today's definition of the term, but a classical liberal in his own time. He did author the Declaration of Independence but did not author the Constitution. Unfortunately, James Madison was the main author of the Constitution, and Jefferson was away in France while it was being written. Jefferson was a staunch supporter of state's rights, and feared federal tyranny. Jefferson's biggest complaints with the Constitution were the lack of a bill of rights, and the lack of term limits. He believed that without term limits, politicians would stay in office for life, which would be a fatal flaw. However, Jefferson did abide by the Constitution regardless of his strong resentments. He considered amendments to be a just way of fixing some of the imperfections.

I don't believe Jefferson would have permitted the government to prevent someone from building a religious building on their private owned land because the Constitution permits it. Thus, I disagree with you respectfully here. However, we may not have the rapid influx of foreigners who hate our culture and laws had Jefferson had any say in the matter today. Jefferson was concerned with foreigners from old European cities coming to America in masses, bringing with them their distinct understanding of government. This was a difficult problem and one that required attention. Jefferson feared that our liberty could be jeopardized by the rapid influx of foreigners who did not share our beliefs in liberty, and would raise families and instill their beliefs in them. But at any rate, for an American citizen to build a mosque on his own land, Jefferson most likely would have accepted it as perfectly legal by the Constitution. Keep in mind, Jefferson was a classical liberal, an anti-federalist, and not at all a neoconservative like most of the Republicans today. Jefferson was a man of principles, and thus followed the Constitution strictly, but with one exception. When Jefferson completed the Louisiana Purchase, he had a very difficult time making the decision to do so without the required amendment to permit the federal government to make such a purchase. However, he went ahead with the purchase because he believed it was good for the country, which obviously it was. Yet, he should have done so with an amendment. Jefferson was the greatest president in our country's history in my humble opinion, regardless of the route he chose for the Louisiana Purchase.

My post must not read out the main point for what it was written.
yeah...after reading it again, the point I meant to make is not really there.

I realize where Jefferson's position on a mosque being built would be, as with any of our founders. It would be a non-issue. 'your land, do what you want with it...' of course.
What I meant to get across is that if it were our founding fathers in office over the last 10yrs. With the knowledge of this radical imam, the "gun-free" zones, the whole 9...etc, etc... I feel the news would be of a completely different context rather than a debate concerning the construction of a monumental mosque on, or near, the grave site of thousands of Americans that were murdered in the name of Islamic jihad. These radicals declared war on our freedom for which they despise. freedom. Which brings me to Jefferson and why I chose to name him by name.

You wrote:

However, we may not have the rapid influx of foreigners who hate our culture and laws had Jefferson had any say in the matter today. Jefferson was concerned with foreigners from old European cities coming to America in masses, bringing with them their distinct understanding of government. This was a difficult problem and one that required attention. Jefferson feared that our liberty could be jeopardized by the rapid influx of foreigners who did not share our beliefs in liberty, and would raise families and instill their beliefs in them.

That^ is one reason I spoke of Jefferson directly. I don't believe that Jefferson would play host to people of such blatant opposing beliefs. As Jefferson has wrote, without reserve, on government, liberty, and maintenance of freedom...on-and-on...the news would be completely different right now. History, in the making, would be of a new founding freedom for the people, guided by wisdom of those men that created The Republic. If only they were in office during this time of reckless tyrant wannabes.
This thread would never even be. That's just what I believe.

[JsJs24]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Do they have the right?..yes. Constitutionally, it's a right. Is it right?..hell no. Not if you're an American savvy to Islamic war tactics.
If our founding father's were alive today, I'd bet that because of the meaning behind these massive monumental mosques, which landmark a defeat and conquering for Islam. Well, from the way our founders went about the fight for their beliefs, this mosque wouldn't even be a debate with them. But, we have a president that is a scholar in law of The Constitution. And we have a country full of anti-Americans that use The Constitution, for which they hate, to gain strategy for their anti-American agendas. Fukin sickening. The founders are rolling in their graves.
I wonder what Thomas Jefferson would've thought of someone exercising their freedom to disrespect the very flag that gives them that freedom. He probably wouldn't think nearly as hostile of the jackass American that does that, but the immigrant might've been seen as an enemy of the state. Both should be charged with treason.
Speaking of the founders. This mosque debate probably wouldn't even be happening, because the radical piece of shit that wants to build the thing so adamantly, would have already been dealt with for treason. But, evidently, there's no such thing as treason anymore.

Horsepwr, you may be correct here, but only in part. Jefferson is my favorite president, and one whom I study immensely. He was a Libertarian in today's definition of the term, but a classical liberal in his own time. He did author the Declaration of Independence but did not author the Constitution. Unfortunately, James Madison was the main author of the Constitution, and Jefferson was away in France while it was being written. Jefferson was a staunch supporter of state's rights, and feared federal tyranny. Jefferson's biggest complaints with the Constitution were the lack of a bill of rights, and the lack of term limits. He believed that without term limits, politicians would stay in office for life, which would be a fatal flaw. However, Jefferson did abide by the Constitution regardless of his strong resentments. He considered amendments to be a just way of fixing some of the imperfections.

I don't believe Jefferson would have permitted the government to prevent someone from building a religious building on their private owned land because the Constitution permits it. Thus, I disagree with you respectfully here. However, we may not have the rapid influx of foreigners who hate our culture and laws had Jefferson had any say in the matter today. Jefferson was concerned with foreigners from old European cities coming to America in masses, bringing with them their distinct understanding of government. This was a difficult problem and one that required attention. Jefferson feared that our liberty could be jeopardized by the rapid influx of foreigners who did not share our beliefs in liberty, and would raise families and instill their beliefs in them. But at any rate, for an American citizen to build a mosque on his own land, Jefferson most likely would have accepted it as perfectly legal by the Constitution. Keep in mind, Jefferson was a classical liberal, an anti-federalist, and not at all a neoconservative like most of the Republicans today. Jefferson was a man of principles, and thus followed the Constitution strictly, but with one exception. When Jefferson completed the Louisiana Purchase, he had a very difficult time making the decision to do so without the required amendment to permit the federal government to make such a purchase. However, he went ahead with the purchase because he believed it was good for the country, which obviously it was. Yet, he should have done so with an amendment. Jefferson was the greatest president in our country's history in my humble opinion, regardless of the route he chose for the Louisiana Purchase.

[JsJs24]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Frankly this disgusts me. But I would not support the government's intervention in any way or toward any outcome. I think the government should even refrain from comment. It is perfectly legal to build a muslim cultural center or whatever it is - containing a mosque - even if it is 2 blocks from ground zero. Originally I had heard this was on the site of the WTC towers, but I am relieved to find that is not the case here. Regardless, I would rather allow the free market to remain free, and also the people's freedom of speech to be heard in support and in opposition. I believe that as this gains more and more publicity, we will see more opposition and hopefully real social and political pressure on the parties responsible for this "mosque" so that their plans are forceably altered. I think that patriotic Americans across the nation should make their voices heard that we do not want this. Though real Muslims do not advocate violence, the erection of a mosque so close to the site of our nation's greatest terrorist tragedy - perpetrated by a dozen cowardly men hiding behind Islam's holy Qurran (sp?) - is simply a tasteless and antagonistic at best. I believe that a true and good follower of Islam would never dare to propose or support such a project. A true and good Muslim would recognize the sensitivity of the "ground zero" site, and easily forsee the hurt and bad blood that surely has followed the announcement of such a project in this area. I believe that it is clear that the organizers, financiers, and supporters of this building are anti-American Islamist sympathizers who wish to rub salt in the yet unhealed wound that is our rebuilding and memorializing of the former WTC site. They do it because they despise Americans and America - they endeavor to hurt us by manipulating the freedoms that have and do make this country the greatest in the world. Let us not react by curtailing our own freedoms. Let us counter with unrelenting popular protest. Let America test the resolve of these self-proclaimed reconcilationists - show them how we feel about this brazen disrespect for our fallen citizens; show them what kind of good will they can hope to foster in this neighborhood. Speak out, be seen, and greet these charlatans with the power that freedom allows us.

Great post, and Koran is the correct spelling. This is indeed a local issue that never should have been commented on by the President. However, if he felt obliged to do so he should have appeased the good Muslims by saying it is in poor taste but they are free to build it.

I can see testify's point in the cowardice issue too. But it does depend on one's context of the term. I believe anyone willing to kill themselves is indeed serious about their cause, yet I consider them cowards for targeting innocent civilians. If they were targeting the military or politicians then their cause would make more since, not that I condone it at all, but it would be targeted at those who they believe they are at war with. By attacking civilians at random and buildings that have no war capabilities is a cowardliness act. They are attacking those who are not in the fight, and not prepared to deal with them.

[horsepwr]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Do they have the right?..yes. Constitutionally, it's a right. Is it right?..hell no. Not if you're an American savvy to Islamic war tactics.
If our founding father's were alive today, I'd bet that because of the meaning behind these massive monumental mosques, which landmark a defeat and conquering for Islam. Well, from the way our founders went about the fight for their beliefs, this mosque wouldn't even be a debate with them. But, we have a president that is a scholar in law of The Constitution. And we have a country full of anti-Americans that use The Constitution, for which they hate, to gain strategy for their anti-American agendas. Fukin sickening. The founders are rolling in their graves.
I wonder what Thomas Jefferson would've thought of someone exercising their freedom to disrespect the very flag that gives them that freedom. He probably wouldn't think nearly as hostile of the jackass American that does that, but the immigrant might've been seen as an enemy of the state. Both should be charged with treason.
Speaking of the founders. This mosque debate probably wouldn't even be happening, because the radical piece of shit that wants to build the thing so adamantly, would have already been dealt with for treason. But, evidently, there's no such thing as treason anymore.

[FUZO]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

what I beleive is if anyone tries to kill themselves by suicide are cowards

[straydoglogic]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

That's a great post there Testify. The only thing I would disagree with is the comment of the men who hijacked the planes being cowards. I guess it depends on the context in which you choose to use the word, but to basically commit suicide over religious ideaology which you only believe to be true, not know absolutely, is certainly not cowardly. Despicable and grotesque yes without a doubt. It's like the kamikaze, it takes a lot in a man to be able to sacrifice your life for a cause, whether it's agreeable or not. But again, your post was spot on. The federal government has no role and should remain quiet on the issue. And I give kudos to anybody who mentions the free market in a positive light! ;-)

[Testify]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Frankly this disgusts me. But I would not support the government's intervention in any way or toward any outcome. I think the government should even refrain from comment. It is perfectly legal to build a muslim cultural center or whatever it is - containing a mosque - even if it is 2 blocks from ground zero. Originally I had heard this was on the site of the WTC towers, but I am relieved to find that is not the case here. Regardless, I would rather allow the free market to remain free, and also the people's freedom of speech to be heard in support and in opposition. I believe that as this gains more and more publicity, we will see more opposition and hopefully real social and political pressure on the parties responsible for this "mosque" so that their plans are forceably altered. I think that patriotic Americans across the nation should make their voices heard that we do not want this. Though real Muslims do not advocate violence, the erection of a mosque so close to the site of our nation's greatest terrorist tragedy - perpetrated by a dozen cowardly men hiding behind Islam's holy Qurran (sp?) - is simply a tasteless and antagonistic at best. I believe that a true and good follower of Islam would never dare to propose or support such a project. A true and good Muslim would recognize the sensitivity of the "ground zero" site, and easily forsee the hurt and bad blood that surely has followed the announcement of such a project in this area. I believe that it is clear that the organizers, financiers, and supporters of this building are anti-American Islamist sympathizers who wish to rub salt in the yet unhealed wound that is our rebuilding and memorializing of the former WTC site. They do it because they despise Americans and America - they endeavor to hurt us by manipulating the freedoms that have and do make this country the greatest in the world. Let us not react by curtailing our own freedoms. Let us counter with unrelenting popular protest. Let America test the resolve of these self-proclaimed reconcilationists - show them how we feel about this brazen disrespect for our fallen citizens; show them what kind of good will they can hope to foster in this neighborhood. Speak out, be seen, and greet these charlatans with the power that freedom allows us.

[straydoglogic]

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero...

Really, the bottom line is this, no matter how much it offends people and how bad of taste it may be in. We live in a Constitutional Republic where the rule of law trumps all else. If it is built on private property and approved by the local authorities, the citizens building the center are perfectly free to do so. Obama or anybody else at the federal level has absolutely no say in the matter. I can't understand how people can want the Constitution followed in some instances and not in others.