worker's unions

[horsepwr]

I grew up hearing about unions being a good thing to get into.
Ya always hear how unions take care of their workers.

I had a guy that worked for me for a couple years, and he really wasn't good for much. He should've been allot more valuable than he ever became to me. He just wouldn't figure something out. He couldn't "get" something, even after showing him how it was done 50 times. Had addictions that interferred with his work, being on time, lodosing shyt constantly. 2 $400 nailers on the same day, etc...
Well, this guy got into a construction based union, and can never be fired. He's a guy that I went to high school with, so I speak to him, now and then, when we cross paths.
Right when he got into this union, and told me how it works, I realized that unions are not a good thing. They are another outlet that allows, and promotes, medicracy. Which cultivates more irresponsibility and dependancy.

[bowbow]

Re: worker's unions

Why can't he be fired? If he can't do the job properly then he can be fired.
And by the way I belong to a union, Operating Engineers out of Cleveland OH. It's been very good to me. To say all unions are bad when you truely have no idea is wrong. I will say they are not perfect by any means.
I've seen many people sent out of the hall to a job I'm on and not be able to perform up to a level that he should be able to do and he gets fired from that job. He's not kicked out of the union hall, He is sent back in and put back on the waiting list to go out to work. So basically if you can't do the work you simply will not work. The more qualified people are the ones out there getting the work.
I never have trouble getting work and get paid for being able to do the job expected of me.
I have excellent benifits, insurance and dam good retirement. I have to work till I'm 62 without losing some of it, which I can't imagine doing this work that long but that's besides the point.
I serous doubt unions are going to be around that long anyway. But right now mine is good to me and many others.

[JsJs24]

Re: worker's unions

Why can't he be fired? If he can't do the job properly then he can be fired.
And by the way I belong to a union, Operating Engineers out of Cleveland OH. It's been very good to me. To say all unions are bad when you truely have no idea is wrong. I will say they are not perfect by any means.
I've seen many people sent out of the hall to a job I'm on and not be able to perform up to a level that he should be able to do and he gets fired from that job. He's not kicked out of the union hall, He is sent back in and put back on the waiting list to go out to work. So basically if you can't do the work you simply will not work. The more qualified people are the ones out there getting the work.
I never have trouble getting work and get paid for being able to do the job expected of me.
I have excellent benifits, insurance and dam good retirement. I have to work till I'm 62 without losing some of it, which I can't imagine doing this work that long but that's besides the point.
I serous doubt unions are going to be around that long anyway. But right now mine is good to me and many others.

I'll say it, there all bad. Of course, they have their perks for the workers but as far as the effect on the company they are bad. Most of my family are in the Boilermakers Union, which has treated them all very well but has also led them to hate republicans, hate Bush, hate anything that is not pro-union and pro-democrat. My uncle got injured in a car accident and now is collecting over $6,000/month for the rest of his life between the pension and SS. His pension is almost as much as he made working there.

I have been studying Unions these last couple weeks. There effects on the company they represent is destructive. Let's see here, of all the companies with unions General Motors, Chrysler, the airlines, railroads are all on the brink of collapse with a few exceptions.

Henry Ford predicted this too. He was anti-union until his wife theatened to divorce him if he didn't give in, and then he made the best union in the country. He warned that a union will destroy the company eventually because it will continue to grow and those in charge will lose their allegiance to the company and consistently work to bankrupt it through increased benefits and wages.

Unions will destroy every company in this country if the Employee Free Choice Act is passed, and if Wal-Mart is ever unionized it too will fail. Those who believe in unions are usually in unions, and are blinded by the damage it causes nor do they care. This may sound harsh but its true. And who are unions to think they should be able to dictate what their employer gives them. No wonder they are mostly democrats, it is the typical give me more give me more mentality. And why are strikes legal? Because the Clayton Act was passed in 1914 which made it legal. But where is the right to work being protected? What about the non-union workers that want to cross the picket lines to work, they have no rights. This subject is another one that is difficult to debate because any union member on this board and democrat will favor unions because they are getting the perks. They do not realize that their demands bankrupt companies such as GM and Chrysler. Instead, they think they are entitled to everything even though they did nothing more than their job. Did they invent the automobile or the assembly line? No. Yet, they act as thought they did. Does Toyota have a union? No. Does Honda? No. I work each and every day in a career field that has far greater responsibility than an auto worker and I have no union to guarantee me increased pay and benefits. I have to earn my raises and don't mind doing so.

[JsJs24]

Re: worker's unions

I never have trouble getting work and get paid for being able to do the job expected of me.
I have excellent benifits, insurance and dam good retirement. I have to work till I'm 62 without losing some of it, which I can't imagine doing this work that long but that's besides the point.
I serous doubt unions are going to be around that long anyway. But right now mine is good to me and many others.

And why do you suppose your benefits are so excellent? Who do you think is paying for that? Who is taking on this cost? These are questions most union members never consider, not that I blame you because it is paying you well. For me, I will take less pay and no union. I cannot go against my principles and give into a union. I view them as the heart of socialism and nothing more. Why do you think the majority of the UK is unionized? But then, why is it so damn expensive to purchase everything over there?

I don't mean to tick you off either bowbow, and I seriously don't blame you for sticking up for a union. However, the evidence is overwhelming that unions destroy companies. And then, on the brink of bankrupt such as with GM and Chrysler, they still won't negotiate. How genius of them. Of course, they probably knew Obama would bail them out. Oh, that's right, Obama the Marxist is a strong union supporter.

One more great union to mention.....the Teachers union. Now there's a good one...lol

[bowbow]

Re: worker's unions

Union Construction and labor built this the cities and roads we have today. I don't think they did to bad.
Everyone has an oppinion and you stated yours, Which is just an oppinion.

[deepsouth]

Re: worker's unions

Well I've worked both and I've been a steward. I have seen good and bad on both sides. Whether you personally like or dislike the union- they are a needed evil so to speak. The union does protect those that need to be fired and fights to keep their jobs(and yes you can fire them with plenty of documentation). The union also has some of the best apprecticeship programs around and most of their journeyman are the best craft workers I've ever been around. The union's collective bargaining also benefits non-union members by keeping their wages and benefits where they are today- make no mistake, if there was no union we would all be make min wage with no benefits so big business could line there pockets even more. Union also has contracts that prevent the company from just doing whjat they want and hold them to a set of rules they must follow- that is really what I miss now that I work non-union. I don't and didn't vote in line with the union becuase I vote for the man and his beliefs- not just party. So before you say they are all good or all bad- you need to understand they are needed.

[horsepwr]

Re: worker's unions

From how it has been explained to me. From the oath, chian of command, worker's treatment. It is a socialist structure.
I have a friend that his fiber optic company became unionized.
Then the friend that used to work with me that joined an electricians union.
Actually, 2 friends in the electricians union.
I know these guys well. They are not putting out but just enough. They are a drain.

Like I said. I always heard how good it is to get into a union. Now I've learned a little about how they function, and I disagree with what I've learned.

[JsJs24]

Re: worker's unions

Union Construction and labor built this the cities and roads we have today. I don't think they did to bad.
Everyone has an oppinion and you stated yours, Which is just an oppinion.

First off let me clarify that I mean no offense to you working in a union and respect your views and of course am happy that people such as yourself have a good job with the union full of benefits and fair pay. Like I said, some of my family works in a union and they have been treated well. My point was that the unions have a negative affect on the business they represent. Basically, their demands continue to drain the company's funds until ultimately products have to increase in price and in worst cases the company goes out of business or is merged with another company in a hostile takeover. Unions are socialist organizations which give the rights to the worker and steel the rights from the employers. The facts speak the truth with regard to history, and GM and Chrysler are the latest example of how a union can force a company into bankruptcy.

The free market will always prosper best if left alone, and wages will ultimately be fair. Let me give you an example. I worked for an aircraft manufacturer that is non-union and our pay was adequate but not as high as others. Well, they had very little competition. Then, a contract of their work was awarded to another company, who realized the pay problem and increased the salary of the employees to lure people from the other company. This worked, and I was one of them that left, for a pay increase of about $6 per hour. Then, the other company raised their pay approximately 20% across the board to keep their people from leaving, thus the market corrected the wages through competitive forces. Both companies remain profitable and all of the employees are better compensated. Fortunately, it did not take a union to make it happen.

[JsJs24]

Re: worker's unions

The union also has some of the best apprecticeship programs around and most of their journeyman are the best craft workers I've ever been around.

I completely agree. The unions train their employees with top notch training. Once again, I am aware that they provide a good benefit to the workers and to society in some aspects. Yet, I believe it is inevitable that the comapnies with unions will eventually be bankrupted unless bailed out by the government. There are some exceptions to this, and of course, trade unions such as iron workers, boilermakers, carpenters, etc, typically are less destructive and can be beneficial with regard to training and adhering to standards such as OSHA and other regulations which must be met. I don't want you to think that I think they are all bad but I feel the long term affect is not good for the business, that's all.

[deepsouth]

Re: worker's unions

You are right- the union and the cmpany must find a common ground if they are to survive. The North has much stronger unions than down here and I have seen first hand how union hands have been more lazy than non-union. Like I said , there is good and bad to both sides, ut in the end- they are very much needed to keep the pay scales and benefits right for all workers

[JsJs24]

Re: worker's unions

You are right- the union and the cmpany must find a common ground if they are to survive. The North has much stronger unions than down here and I have seen first hand how union hands have been more lazy than non-union. Like I said , there is good and bad to both sides, ut in the end- they are very much needed to keep the pay scales and benefits right for all workers

I see you point on pay scales but I would argue its not the case. Unions make up a mere 7% of the US workforce. Therefore, 93% that aren't union are providing the bulk of the jobs. My job is not union and is one of the fastest growing industries in the aeronautical field, yet my pay is far more than I could have made in a similar position with one of the unions. Plus, our people get promoted based off of ability. My union friends in the industry make less than I do currently, but they are guaranteed pay increased each year until they cap out at year 5, regardless of their ability. Where I work you will be fired if you don't prove to have some ability. And once again, all of the perks come with my job too.

It is a highly debatable subject, and one that typically the union workers will favor and the non-union oppose. I'm glad to see workers such as yourself earn good pay, but those who are lazy and continue to make the same pay as the ones who work their tail off are not deserving. Do you like to know that the worthless employees who are late, slack off, don't do their job right, etc are getting paid the same wage as you? You see, when I came to my company I expected a certain salary, which tends to be several thousand higher than many of the guys I started with, but my experience spoke for itself. I had leadership experience and systems experience with a major competitor which could easily be explained in an interview, and plenty of references to support my ability. Thus, I came on at an attractive salary, otherwise I would have gone to another company who would have paid the salary I demanded. It is a supply and demand world. Fortunately in my case there are not many people with my experience so supply is low and demand is high. There are several employees at my company who used to work at the airlines in unions. One of them hated it but stuck out 20 years to get a pension for the rest of his life, and another one didn't mind it but was stuck on the midnight shift for more than 10 years due to lack of seniority. I have another friend now working in a union on aircraft and he is on his 3rd year and finally got swing shift instead of midnight shift. Well, he doesn't want to work swing shift either but until somebody retires he is stuck there.

No union for me is all I know. They are 100% opposite of my views and principles. I am a believer of free markets and individualism, not socialist systems and collectivist principles with 3rd party intervention in the markets. I am a believer in individuals and their ability to create, not the workers and their demands and ability to destroy.

An interesting thing to think about is what Ayn Rand's book Atlas Shrugged was about. She told a story of what would happen if the industrialists who created industries, and invented products, etc were to go on strike. Ask yourself that question. What would happen to our country if all of the wealthy job creators were to go on strike? If they were to get to a point where enough is enough and said no more, and shut the doors. You see, people don't stop and realize how important people like Sam Walden, Bill Gates, Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, H***** Firestone, Steve Jobs and many others are. They seem to think that it is the employee who made it all possible for the company to prosper, but that is not the case, because there are many more like the employee that will do that job, and when it gets difficult to find those employees then wages are increased to attract applicants. It is not to say that no thanks is in order to those of us who work for these companies, simple that the real reason for our job is the fact that the person who started the company is the reason it exists. There are very few great minds of this sort, and the more government intervention and unions power in the workplace the less innovation will occur.

[Doink the clown]

Re: worker's unions

Geez, Ive had this debate a thousand times.... I am in the UAW out of Cleveland,OH and it's a two-edged sword sometimes,but if it weren't for retards like Henry Ford treating workers like slaves back in the day we wouldn't have a need for unions.
True, some unions allow poor workers to remain on the job, but as quality of vehicles went up so did the thinning of the ranks. If you slack on the line i'm on we make your life miserable until you flat out quit,men,women, we don't care,screw you goodbye.
a few things folks don't know is this,auto-industry speaking,cant speak for the other trades:
1.If no union,who then will speak for you? companies can toss you in an instant if they want
2.toyota and honda's senior line workers make more than the big 3's line workers do an hr
3. the big three make ALOT of money off those vehicles and they can afford to pay a man a good wage to make them....trust me those at the top are grossly rich
4.A vehicles price is only about 7-10% from labor,you tell me who's pocketing the money
Now, 2 things i hate are having to wait on a tradesman to do something i can do in 2 minutes and get back to work, and secondly, i am a republican and i hate the fact we don't vote on which presidential candidate to support,we vote on evry single thing so why not that?!!

[pigmeat]

Re: worker's unions

here is my take...there is a place for unions...if they all go, so will all our good wages, benefits, paid vacation,ect...need to keep a balance of union shops around to keep the companies honest. On the other hand, the unions do not care that the company has to make a profit or they shut down....for example...steel workers killed the us steel industry...the UMWA killed the mining industry...and of course the UAW killed the auto industry. Not to offend anyone but steel workers and auto workers are not worth near what they were paid when you figure in all the benefits....some of them are making more than dentists, and laywers, but look at them now..they overpriced themselves right out of jobs.....other thing about unions...THEY PROTECT THEIR WEAK!

[Doink the clown]

Re: worker's unions

here is my take...there is a place for unions...if they all go, so will all our good wages, benefits, paid vacation,ect...need to keep a balance of union shops around to keep the companies honest. On the other hand, the unions do not care that the company has to make a profit or they shut down....for example...steel workers killed the us steel industry...the UMWA killed the mining industry...and of course the UAW killed the auto industry. Not to offend anyone but steel workers and auto workers are not worth near what they were paid when you figure in all the benefits....some of them are making more than dentists, and laywers, but look at them now..they overpriced themselves right out of jobs.....other thing about unions...THEY PROTECT THEIR WEAK!

I couldn't disagree with you more.My boss got a $485,000 bonus,and he's not the top dog.Imo,China killed the steel industry,and yes while unions especially the UAW negotiated better everything,Last time i checked the American dream was to make as much as possible to take care of your family.And let's not forget all those overpriced auto workers buy cars,boats,houses,send kids to college,buy food,retail goods...........never met a co-worker of mine feeding off the welfare system.Trust me, in my industry there making alot of money off the cars and parts you buy.
I have my issues with the union,but another thing people overlook is management would cut my throat in a heartbeat to save or make another nickel,toss me aside and let the wheels keep right on rolling.

[trip]

Re: worker's unions

ehhh, union contractor for 20 years, pipe fitters, last several they were phased out, all of our copper piping work had gone electronic over 20 years

there was a reason why they were important and why they became less important

main thing was in early 70s when alot of mgf plant in the north were old and needed re-tooling when interest rates were 10% and going higher, southern states gave tax breaks and free land for mfg facilties, now of course 30 years later when those needed to be re-tooled alot when south and east

anyways southern states are right to work less unions so unions became weaker

no different or better than any large group, the ones that have a real trade or craft do a great job teaching, the ones that are valuable do well, the only negative I had were two, they had so many stupid rules and if you got a real union man they cost you a shit load of money cause like one poster said, they cause a 5 minute problem to become a four hour pain in the ass losing money proposition, and attitude at times, thinking they were the only people in the world who knew how things worked

i've had great union men, and horrible non-union guys, labor for the most part has little effect on why busines's or industries fail, it's usually bad management decisions over a period 20 years

steel went kaput due to old rrefineries that needed massive infusion of new capital when scrap metal mini-mills came into existence, this happened at the same time russia opened up, which was a biig steel maker, thus the went bye bye, were bought out and re-tooled under new management and have done fine, cause costs are aligned with new market

miners, had competition from other countries, ie, supply was no longer erratic and could be counted on, companies went by bye and they reformed with different rules and different capital structures and have done fine, same with auto's, unions did not kill the car companies, upper level management mis-read the market, ie, competition and there own buyers for 20 years

rail roads, went thru a massive re-tooling in 98-99, too many companies, so they consolidated down too a half dozen, cut over head, cut mid-level management, upgraded rails and cars, and have been a great business for the last ten years and will contiue to be.............these are all standard typical business cycles for large industries