WBB Round Table - Issue 2

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Have you ever wondered what the answers are to all the age-old questions that have been asked regarding bodybuilding, supplements and nutrition? Even though WBB has a host of informative bodybuilding forums that provide daily answers to your questions; we’ve decided to assemble some folks who are well versed in one or more of the forum areas and who will attempt to answer those burning questions that keep you wide awake every night.


Supplements

Q: With so many conflicting ways of taking Creatine, I'm confused as to what the best or most effective method of loading and taking Creatine is?

A: Blood&Iron:

Okay, there are a couple of parts to this question, each of which I will address separately.

1. Is loading necessary?

It is not, strictly speaking. Most people will, upon beginning Creatine supplementation, experience a fairly notable increase in weight--due to water-retention--as well as an increase in strength (For those who eat large amounts of red meat, which contains Creatine, these effects will usually be a bit less pronounced). If you want these effects to occur immediately, you load. If you're a patient person, don't. You'll still get the same results, they will simply occur more gradually over the course of a month or so. If you're going to load, I'd say the old stand-by protocol of taking 5g, four times daily is probably ideal. Taking more than approximately 6g at once leads to about half the stuff being excreted in your urine (1). So the 10g, twice daily protocol recommended by some companies selling dextrose/Creatine products will just end up causing you to piss your money away.
As I will address in the second part of this question, the best way to take Creatine is with some protein and carbohydrates. Protein and carbohydrates? Sounds suspiciously like a meal. Actually, taking your Creatine with meals is probably the easiest and cheapest method of loading and should work just fine.

2. What’s the best way to take Creatine?

They’re overwhelming array of Creatine products at this point: effervescent formulas, titrated Creatine, and yes, plain old' Creatine monohydrate powder. Unless you suffer gastrointestinal distress from using Creatine, skip the fancy stuff as it tends to be much more expensive than powder and doesn't improve its efficacy. Otherwise, give them a shot (A notable exception to this is the Creatine serums. Avoid these like the Plague. They contain virtually no actual Creatine (2)). As mentioned above, if you're using the powders, taking more
than about 6g at one time is pointless. Once you've loaded, taking just 3g or so per day as a maintenance dose is fine. What the best way to take your Creatine? Well, one study showed that ingesting about 100g of dextrose with Creatine would improve its uptake (3). Another study shows that about 50g of whey and 50g of dextrose will work even better (4). Don't worry too much about the ratio, though. So long as you have 50-100g of dextrose or maltodextrin, and say 25g of whey protein or so, it should be fine. This is a standard post-workout shake. So just, toss the Creatine into that. As a side note, Bryan Haycock, who is one of the leading authorities on supplements, is currently advocating that people take their Creatine pre-workout as he claims uptake will be improved. To my knowledge, there is no direct evidence confirming this, but given the physiology of the situation he is probably right. I think either protocol should work just fine.

A: Wizard:

The best question would definitely be whether it is necessary to load or not. The answer is simple: No, it isn't! You can just reach the muscle-Creatine saturation point quicker than if you just started out with the maintenance dose. However, if you want to do it, the next guide can aid you in getting the most of it. Remember though, that the best results have been noticed when Creatine is combined with a high carbohydrate base, such as dextrose or maltodextrin and taken just after training, or split it into two doses during the loading phase, the first 30 mins before training (or in the morning) and the last as mentioned above.

Loading phase

Body Weight Range/day:

Below 155 lbs. 12-16 grams
156 to 175 lbs 13-17 grams
176 to 199 lbs. 14-18 grams
200 to 225 lbs. 15-19 grams
Above 225 lbs. 16-20 grams

Maintenance phase

Body Weight Range/Day:

Below 155 lbs. 4-8 grams
156 to 175 lbs 5-9 grams
176 to 199 lbs. 6-10 grams
200 to 225 lbs. 7-11 grams
Above 225 lbs. 8-12 grams

[1]. Ingesting Creatine monohydrate at 20 g/day for 6 days can increase muscle free Creatine, possibly enhancing recovery between short bouts of high intensity exercise. [1] Once muscle saturation is achieved after 6 days, only two g/day is necessary to maintain saturated tissue levels of Creatine.

After supplementation is halted, it takes approximately a month for total Creatine in muscle to return to normal levels. To clear things out, I assure you that Creatine is not harmful to the body, [2] does not increase blood pressure levels [2] and does not need to be cycled. I mean that it is not essential. It is a naturally occurring amino acid derivative. However, it has been suggested that people with a history of renal dysfunction or diabetes should refrain from Creatine supplementation, but it's a special case. A nice approach is to avoid completely the loading phase is to just getting up to 5 grams after every training session.



A: Severed Ties:

I’m not surprised you're confused, as every supplement company out their would lead you to believe there is some secret protocol to get huge off of Creatine. Some guys go so far as to make injectable preparations which do not seem to be more effective than drinking the powder. The point is your body can’t use more than a few grams of Creatine a day. So no matter how many carbs or insulin sensitizing agents you add, it’s not going to increase the size of your bodies’ Creatine stores. Loading Creatine is not necessary but loading will allow you to reach peak Creatine levels sooner. I only recommend buying Creatine in bulk powder so loading only costs a few pennies. Since a few pennies is hardly cost prohibitive I load with 10 grams a day for the first 5 days and afterwards I use 5 grams a day for maintenance. Your body may not be able to absorb 10 grams in one dose so I break it into one dose post workout and the other with a large meal. There is some evidence that Creatine is better absorbed with a large amount of carbs to stimulate insulin. Personally I can’t say I find a difference with carbs or without carbs but I take mine post workout as your body is most receptive to nutrients then. I also feel post-workout carbs are an important part of recovery so I usually consume 50 grams of dextrose in my post workout shake. In the event carbs are important to Creatine absorption taking Creatine post workout solves this problem without having to create a large, undesirable insulin spike at some other point in the day.


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Q: I know that this question must be asked many times but I was wondering what the best phormone out there on the market is?

Is it even worth taking one?

A: Blood&Iron:

Many people will insist that prohormones are worthless and that if you’re going to mess around with androgens you should just go with ‘the real deal.’ Most of these people were burned on the first crop of prohormones like DHEA and androstenedione which are worthless for increasing strength or muscle mass (1, 2, 3). Thus embittered, they continue to chant the mindless mantra of ‘Andro sucks!’ without having looking at more recent, much improved products (Be forewarned, though, that there is still plenty of
junk on the market). For those unwilling to take the legal risks involved in using illegal anabolics, or for those who simply have no source, things like topical 4-AD and 1-AD are viable alternatives to the real thing. Granted, they tend to be less efficacious and more expensive than their illegal cousins, but if used in conjunction with a solid diet and training regimen they can, in some cases, produce results that rival a weak cycle of prescription agents.

One must always remember, however, that these are drugs, and they carry with them significant risks. Don’t for a second believe that simply because they’re legal, they are free of side effects. I, personally, think it unwise for women to mess around with any of these compounds (Of course, I don’t think women should use steroids period). If they do, they risk irreversible side effects like deepening of the voice, clitoral enlargement, and facial hair. Men, too, may experience side effects, which include acne, hair loss, and gynecomastia among others. Further, these are merely the superficial side effects; there are more serious effects that can occur with extended or chronic, intermittent use. Patrick Arnold, who is the undisputed father of the prohormones industry, said this recently on another message board: "And its not just post cycle suppression, its liver problems, cardiovascular complications, and a whole host of other potential problems that are now just waiting to pop up. People need to be advised carefully on the use of this stuff and there are enough idiots out there who can just pick this [expletive deleted] up anywhere and take a bottle a day thinking it's perfectly safe."(4) As noted above, there are tradeoffs to be made when deciding which prohormones to use. Generally, the more effective one is, the more significant the side effects will be; it is an unfortunate, but unavoidable fact—despite what some companies may claim. Therefore, for someone concerned about going bald the ‘best’ prohormones is going to be the one least likely of causing hair loss. This will be one of the norandro products. Best would be a topical norandrodiol, such as Norandrospray made by Ergopharm or Nor-Aderm from Avant Labs. Of course, these will not be nearly as potent as some other possible choices, but you will be much less likely to come off the stuff looking like Telly Savalas, then if you go with something like 1-AD (5).

If one is to judge merely by efficacy and ignore potential side effects there is no question as to which prohormones is best: it is 1-testosterone. Actually, 1-test isn’t a prohormones at all, but a honest-to-goodness steroid. 1-testosterone is an isomer of testosterone, which is currently being legally sold as a dietary supplement. It is legal simply because it is naturally occurring and was never introduced as prescription agent (It has very strong irritant properties and is unsuitable as an injectable). It does not aromatize so there is virtually no risk of gynecomastia, but it is quite androgenic, so it’s quite possible that if one is predisposed to balding, hair loss occur while using this stuff (6). Due to its androgenicity, it is an exceedingly poor choice for women. With these negatives, however, may come impressive gains. Of all the available products, Avant Labs One and One+, which are transdermals,
have had the most positive feedback of the available 1-test products (7). The other notable 1-test product is Molecular Nutrition’s 1-THP ethergels--though at this time they are expensive. Judging from available feedback, either of these should be quite effective if used intelligently. I'd skip Biotest's Mag-10 (It is predominantly 4-AD, which is listed first on the ingredient list; Biotest refuses to state how much 1-test Mag-10 actually contains), Syntrax Sauce, and anything other product that is merely 1-test powder shoved into capsule form. Of course, anecdotal reports are pretty much the only evidence that any of these products work. The government wants very much to ban prohormones entirely, so there is something of a catch-22 going on. If the
companies selling these products produce clinical studies proving that a particular product increases strength or muscle mass, the government will, in all likelihood, classify it as a steroid and pull it from the market(8).

References:

1. Broeder CE. Quindry J. Brittingham K. Panton L. Thomson J. Appakondu S.Breuel K. Byrd R. Douglas J. Earnest C. Mitchell C. Olson M. Roy T. Yarlagadda C. The Andro Project: physiological and hormonal influences of androstenedione supplementation in men 35 to 65 years old participating in a high-intensity resistance training program. Archives of Internal Medicine. 160(20):3093-104, 2000 Nov 13.

2. King DS, Sharp RL, Vukovich MD, et al. Effect of oral androstenedione on serum testosterone and adaptations to resistance training in young men: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 1999;281:2020-2028

3. Schnirring, L. DHEA: Hype, hope not matched by facts. Phys. Sports Med. 26:17–22. 1998.

A: Severed Ties:

It’s hard to say what the “best” prohormone is. 1-AD seems to be the best in terms of which prohormone will add the most muscle. However when you compare the cost of 1-AD to the amount of muscle it will help you gain I’d say it’s one of the worst. I was given a few bottles of 1-AD when it first came out and was not impressed in the least. That was just my experience with it; overall, the feedback seems positive if you can afford to take a high enough dose for a few weeks. I’ve said it in the past and still feel topical 4-AD is the best prohormone on the market, it’s cheap and it works. 4-AD is anabolic on its own and converts to Testosterone. The increase in T levels gives the added bonus of a noticeable increase in libido. 4-AD also works as a strong CNS stimulant thereby increasing motor unit recruitment which makes it a valuable supplement to power lifters. As far as side effects 4-AD is rather mild in all departments except the skin. 4-AD is rather androgenic so it can cause acne breakouts in some users. Its common for skin to become very oily as the sebasios glands start to work overtime so be prepared to spend extra time cleansing your skin.

Training -->>

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Q: A personal trainer at my gym told me that I could focus on training the "upper and lower" regions of my abdominal wall. Is this possible, I mean I was always under the impression that the rectus abdominis was one muscle?

A:

When it all boils down, the question that needs to be answered is, can certain muscles be regionally targeted? There's quite a gray area surrounding this issue. The all or none law states that an action potential either occurs and is transmitted down the axon, or doesn’t occur at all. In other words, a muscle contracts as a whole or does not at all. So how can a muscle that is one sheath have certain areas placed under more stress? Multitudes of trainees have testified about how they've selectively emphasized different regions of certain muscles. Science also shows through testing that muscles such as the rectus abdominis can be regionally emphasized to a certain extent (1). Then again, as the saying goes, there are two sides to every slice. On the other side, science also shows us the opposite (2).

This is an area of controversy that'll continually be debated until science proves otherwise. I lean towards the group who believe that it's possible to target certain areas of a muscle. This is based upon personal experience. Although science plays an integral part in shaping and guiding us, real life results cannot be ignored.

References

1. Lehman GJ, McGill SM. Quantification of the differences in electromyographic activity magnitude between the upper and lower portions of the rectus abdominis muscle during selected trunk exercises. Phys Ther. 2001 May;81(5):1096-101.PMID: 11319934.

2. Willett GM, Hyde JE, Uhrlaub MB, Wendel CL, Karst GM. Relative activity of abdominal muscles during commonly prescribed strengthening exercises. J Strength Cond Res. 2001 Nov;15(4):480-5. PMID: 11726260.


A: Cameron:

Abs, in fact, are one unit, however there are many people who can preferentially recruit each segment at a time. A good example is belly dancers. I think that certain exercises lend themselves to stressing certain areas. Most variations of sit-ups work the upper abdominals more so than the lower abs. While hanging leg, raises tend to stress the lowers abs more than the upper. Although the upper still is worked.


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Q: Recently at the gym I overheard the gym instructor scold one of the patrons about performing the behind the neck press and how it's "bad" for you. I was under the impression that if my shoulder joints were healthy this exercise wouldn’t be a problem.

A:

No matter where you go, everyone has an opinion on what movements should be excluded from your arsenal of training exercises. For most, the behind the neck pulls down is one of them. If you're waiting for me to jump aboard the bandwagon and condemn this exercise, you've guessed wrong. Although the shoulder joint (ball and socket) is highly susceptible to injury, this doesn't mean that exercises such as the behind the neck pull down should be left alone. Most times, people are quick to place the blame on an exercise that they believe is the reason for their injury when in fact the cause was either due to poor form and technique or the exercise just brought out an underlying problem. If people have problems in their shoulder joints any exercise that places stress on this joint will bring it one step closer injury. The shoulder rotators, (infraspinatus, subscapularis, teres major, and the teres minor) usually poses the biggest threat when it comes to injury. In many cases, an impingement syndrome is the result. A healthy range of motion is what keeps injury at bay when this exercise is performed. If the proper range of motion is maintained then it is most likely that you will not injure your shoulder joints.

For the most part, advanced trainees will fare better using this exercise, as they will have a better grasp of what their body's can handle and what their limitations are. For beginners I would advise them to be aware of how their body reacts to any exercise in general. Start with a light load and progress with caution. This is to be followed with any exercise that is new to them. In the end, it is the lifter who is ultimately a threat, not the exercise itself.

A: Cameron:

The behind the neck press is a completely safe exercise. If you have healthy shoulders, you should be fine. Always execute exercises in a safe manner and perform a warm up and dynamic flexibility exercises before starting your workout. People with compromised shoulder stability or rotator cuff muscles that are injured should take care in using this exercise. It can be problematic.