Tweethow old are ya? it takes me a long time to get back to even low normal ranges.

post cycle i use tribulus, avena sativa, and stinging nettle extract. these in combination raise natty test by mimicking LH and decrease SHBG levels by binding to it allowing more free test. (this is what i have read and it seems to help me quite a bit)

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Originally Posted by skeer126

ive been off for 3 months now and have had 2 blood tests since......i took my first blood test after properly using 20,000 units of every day.....my test levels and lh levels came back low and out of range.....i took another 5000 iu's of ....go back 2 weeks ago and take another blood test and my test levels are even lower and my lh went up .1% which is basically nothing.......what the hell should i do....my doc said maybe go to an endocronoligist......my [ was pretty heavy and i was usuing for 12+ weeks so i knew it was going to be bad but not this bad...what should i do fellas?

I'm confused...

i took my first blood test after properly using 20,000 units of every day

What does the above mean or 20,000 units of what every day?

What was your cycle? Dosages? Compounds? Length? Age? Training Experience? What type of PCT you use? How long was PCT? etc

TweetFor one this dr much not know much about male reproductive, because testing every 2wks is too quick after doing hormone treatment and the tests will most likey not change. You need to be tested every 60 days. This is because your hormone balances and your spermatoza are somewhat linked and if one is on the low end it could be affecting the other. How were you running the hcg?? For atrophy and to raise test levels it is a dosage of 1000IU 3 times a wk split up and continue treatment for at least 1 a month or 2. I personally would run 25mg ed of proviron with it. Then go back and get the test done. I will bet that your natural test levels will be back to normal. Also, general practitioners sometimes use dif scales in measuring ranges for test. Better to go to an endo.

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Originally Posted by Stout1

I'm confused...



What does the above mean or 20,000 units of what every day?

What was your cycle? Dosages? Compounds? Length? Age? Training Experience? What type of PCT you use? How long was PCT? etc

sorry.....20,000 units hcg.....and my cycle was long ...bout 6 months with heavy tren use(about 12 weeks)....my 5th cycle..22 years old....pct consisted of hcg 1000 iu's every day for 20 days after 2 weeks of last shot of test.....also been running nolva on and off for the past 2 months.....

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Originally Posted by mick-G

For one this dr much not know much about male reproductive, because testing every 2wks is too quick after doing hormone treatment and the tests will most likey not change. You need to be tested every 60 days. This is because your hormone balances and your spermatoza are somewhat linked and if one is on the low end it could be affecting the other. How were you running the hcg?? For atrophy and to raise test levels it is a dosage of 1000IU 3 times a wk split up and continue treatment for at least 1 a month or 2. I personally would run 25mg ed of proviron with it. Then go back and get the test done. I will bet that your natural test levels will be back to normal. Also, general practitioners sometimes use dif scales in measuring ranges for test. Better to go to an endo.

it was a month in between tests ...maybe a month and a week...but my question is why would they go down instead of up....i thought it would go up alittle bit at least since i used some more hcg and nolva.....i guess im just gonna run some more nolva and wait it out

TweetDon't run nolva with hcg, lol! How were you running the hcg?? Run it 1000IU 3times a wk with 25mg ed of proviron.

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Originally Posted by mick-G

Don't run nolva with hcg, lol! How were you running the hcg?? Run it 1000IU 3times a wk with 25mg ed of proviron.

dont run nolva with hcg?...whats the deal with that...ive known plenty of guys whove done it....ne reason in particular u say that?

TweetSorry, i thought you said clomid, lol! Here is part of an article from Anthony Roberts....

Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (35)It can also block a bit of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"estrogen in the pituitary, which is a great benefit when used with HCG (more on that later) (36)(37). The increase in testosterone " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Why don’t we use " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH
(Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex and " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT I’m suggesting…and in fact, avoided in general…it’s simply not as good as " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex.

Need I even add that the 150mgs of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"Clomid you need to get the hormonal increase experienced with 20mgs of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex is much more expensive? So lets dump the " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"Clomid…an d no, using it along with " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex will provide no “synergy” that I’ve ever seen in any relevant study.

SO how much " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex should you use during " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT? I favor using 20mgs.day, although to be totally honest, you can probably even get away with far less than that. Doses as low as 5mgs/day have proven to be as effective as 20mgs/day for certain areas of gonadal stimulation. (8) 20mgs/day, however, is a dose that myself and others have used with great success, and the research I’ve done in this area typically uses this milligram amount. SO lets stick with 20mgs/day for now.

So that effectively suggests " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex can not be used at Mega-doses to get a mega-increase in your natural hormones. We can’t use huge doses of any Anti-Estrogen, actually, and expect huge increases in our natural hormones, actually. Arimidex (an " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=98"Aromatase Inhibitor –which means it stops the conversion of testosterone into " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"estrogen-another drug used to fight breast cancer like " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex) exhibits basically the same effects when .5mgs or a full 1mg is used (9) and I have even read studies where up to 10mgs/day of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=98"Arimidex is studied with no clear benefit over 1mg/day. Letrozole (another " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=98"Aromatase Inhibitor) is capable of inhibiting " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=98"Aromatase maximally at a mere 100mcg/day (10.). So clearly we need to add in other compounds to our " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT, because Mega-Doses of one compound will not I think it’s absurdly funny to see people recommending upwards 40-80mgs/day of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex, or a full milligram (or two!) of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=98"Arimidex, in their post-cycle or on-cycle suggestions. I’d steer very clear of listening to anyone who makes those types of recommendations…

All of this tells me that you can’t simply use mega-doses of Anti-Estrogens or SERMS to do anything more than reasonable doses. It must be, therefore, that your body can only respond with so much vigor to any one drug in those families. So lets add in another drug or two, ok? This way we can use reasonable doses of a few drugs and produce some synergy…hopefully decreasing our recovery time.

We’ll need something to go with " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex, which acts in a different manner, and Human Chorionic Gonadatropin (HCG) is the clear choice here. Here’s where things get a bit controversial (no, really…I know you , because I’m pretty much the only person around (currently) who recommends HCG for Post-Cycle Therapy. Although I’m seen as Old School in this respect, really, this is a totally new paradigm for HCG use, made possible only by the inclusion of the other compounds I am introducing to you for " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT. HCG is the natural choice, as it has been used successfully to cure AAS induced (11), and this alone warrants its inclusion to our cycle.

HCG is a peptide hormone manufactured by the embryo in the early stages of pregnancy and later by the placenta to help control a pregnant woman’s hormones (can anything really be said to control a pregnant woman’s hormones except ice-cream and chocolate?). Obviously, as you can guess from the name, it is a substance that stimulates the gonads (hence: gonadotropin). It does this by initiating gene transcription that is identical to that of Luetenizing Hormone, thereby causing the Leydig Cells to produce testosterone. Sounds great right? We can stimulate LH and FSH production with our " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex, and then directly stimulate the Leydig Cells as well, to produce tons of testosterone by different routes! Well...it’s not all that simple.

Unfortunately, while HCG increases Testosterone, it increases " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"estrogen as well(12). As you probably know, estrogen acts directly on the Leydig cells to effect changes in the activities of enzymes important for testosterone synthesis (13) and may actually be considered an important part of that negative feedback loop I mentioned earlier. In addition, an increase in circulating levels of LH have been shown to induce down-regulation of LH-receptors in both rodent studies (14), as well as in human studies (15); since HCG mimics LH, you can expect it to do the same. This LH downregulation can cause an increase in steroidogenic cholesterol (the cholesterol earmarked by your body for conversion into testosterone). (16). Thus, after the initial HCG induced surge in testosterone is over, if you have used enough to downregulate your LH-receptors and increase " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"estrogen too much, then more steroidogenic cholesterol is available. This is telling me that less is being converted to testosterone. In fact, rodent models suggest that if you take a dose large enough to cause a sharp increase of plasma testosterone, you will actually desensitize your Leydig cells to your next shot, and will possibly not experience any rise in testosterone from the second dose at all, or may only experience a very slight one at best (17.). Since this is due to LH-Receptor downregulation, and that occurs in human models too, it is pretty fair to assume that if your first dose of HCG is too large, your second won’t be very effective. Unfortunately, this lack of an increase in testosterone doesn’t necessarily mean that the HCG may be unable to increase circulating levels of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"Estrogen (18) And remember that increase in " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"Estrogen will (most likely) cause your body ultimately to produce less testosterone. Low LH post-cycle is not the primary cause of slow recovery, because LH generally rises to levels above baseline after a cycle much sooner than testosterone production does. This is probably because the pituitary is working very hard to get your atrophied Leydig cells to start producing testosterone again. HCG should also bring back testicular volume; I feel the need to mention this because it’s important to me and I suspect most men as well.
It would also appear that HCG works very well when it’s used on men who have low levels of LH to begin with (as you would be after a cycle), as many studies on pre-pubertal boys and Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadal men would suggest (19)

This suggests that a pre-exposure to normal LH levels or gonadatropins in general is necessary for HCG-induced Leydig Cell desensitization. This, of course is not a problem for us, as we’ll be using it when LH/Gonadatropin levels are very low anyway …we just need to stop using it before we regain normal function, or it will work against us eventually. (19) (20). Luckily, the temporary Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism that is experienced after a cycle basically allows us to respond to HCG like anyone with low LH levels (21), and thus, as I told you, a lot of the possible inhibitory effect of HCG is not going to be relevant because there was no prior “priming” by circulating gonadotrophins. This is great news for us, because we are going to be using HCG during " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT, when we need to get back some HPTA function, and not when we have levels of gonadatropins high enough to cause HCG-induced desensitization.

But are we still risking some inhibition and possibly delaying our recovery by using HCG? Probably not…you see, some studies in humans have shown that HCG does not actually have a direct effect on inhibiting LH release in men (22)(23), but rather (probably) works to inhibit LH secretion indirectly, simply by stimulating the production of testosterone (thus activating the negative feedback loop). Another factor involved is the induction of testicular " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=98"aromatase , which raises " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"estrogen levels, again causing inhibition. Unfortunately, yet another process, the downregulation of the Leydig Cell LH receptor itself, seems to also play a role in high dose HCG testicular desensitization. This is also done by HCG actually blocking the conversion of 17 " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=54"alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) to testosterone (24). Nolvadex actually stops this blocking-action of HCG from taking place (25). Most likely, because of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex’ s direct antiestrogenic effect and LH-upregulating effect on the Pituitary, suppression of gonadotropins via HCG is (25) almost totally stopped with concurrent administration of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex! So if we Use " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex and we are only using HCG when we are low in gonadatropins, we won’t be inhibited by it at all! Right?

Well…maybe…but there’s still the issue of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"estrogen caused by that HCG-stimulated surge in testosterone. Well…we can use low doses (300iu or so) to avoid some of that major spike in " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"estrogen, and thus cause far less inhibition from the HCG (26). Of course, I’d want to use a bit more HCG per injection (500iu), if I could, to get my body functioning fully more quickly, and lose less of my gains. Maybe we can get away with taking some Vitamin E with our HCG, since it increases the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG, making them significantly higher during vitamin E administration than without it (27). So we can get a better
response with our HCG by taking Vitamin E (I recommend 1,000iu/day), but that doesn’t get rid of the problem that we have, which is the " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"estrogen increase the HCG will cause.

Lets solve that pesky " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"estrogen problem now….

Lets add in an " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=98"Aromatase Inhibitor! Which one, though? Well, since we are already using " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex, we can’t use Letrozole or " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=98"Arimidex, as the " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex will actually greatly decrease the blood plasma levels of them (28)!

So we have to use Aromasin (exemestane) as our AI, because it’s an " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=98"aromatase inactivator, meaning it makes " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"estrogen receptors useless, and instead of just inhibiting production (as an anti-aromatase would do) it cuts off production totally. Aromasin can also cause androgenic sides (29)(30)(31), which may help to elevate your mood while you are on " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT. This final drug in my recommended " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT can effectively remove up to about 85%+ of " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=42"estrogen from your body (32). Most importantly, using Aromasin together with " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex doesn’t reduce exemestane’s effectiveness (33). So now, I think the problem of ANY inhibition possible with HCG is solved, and we can use that 500iu/day dose that I wanted to use previously.

With this " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT, there will be a rapid increase in LH, FSH, and testosterone, as well as almost a complete block on all the factors that could be causing your natural hormones to be delayed in returning to baseline. For this reason, I feel that the second your cycle is over is when you should start this " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT (a week after your last shot, or the day after your last pill is fine). Remember, waiting for some of the extra androgens you’ve been taking to leave your body is nonsensical, as we want to start recovery as soon as possible to retain maximum gains. There is no evidence to suggest waiting any length of time after your cycle is over will increase " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT effectiveness…it simply prolongs the time you aren’t doing anything positive to regain your natural hormones. And how long do we run this for? Well…we need to stop the HCG relatively soon for reasons discussed earlier. But the " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=43"Nolvadex, and Aromasin can be used for awhile longer. Ideally, we’d be getting weekly blood work, but we could also get it done monthly, and just running this " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT until we see our natural hormones restored…but weekly bloodwork isn’t really an option for most of us. Failing the option of monitoring recovery with blood-work, I’m going to give you my best thoughts on the time you should be running your " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT. It’s important to note I haven’t discussed nutrition or other compounds that may be beneficial…this is because in this article, I am primarily concerned with the restoration of hormonal function, nothing else. And with no further delays, here are my recommendations for " href="https://www.ar-r.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41"PCT:

Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
6 20mgs/day

Id still run some proviron with it, but this should work like a charm.