TweetSINCE I WILL BE USING THIS IN MY PCT I WOULD LIKE SOME FEEBACK ON WHAT PEOPLE THINK OF IT THAT HAS TRIED IT.PLEASE EXPLAIN ON WHAT IT DID FOR YOU AND HOW YOU FELT ON IT

TweetThis is the thread you were talking about. I don't think it is on the board anymore. But I saved it a long time ago

Posted by Juice Authority on 08-29-2003 09:31 PM:
Proviron!- Here's a topic we can debate..
Before that thread on Nelson was deleted you suggested that I bring up a topic where you can hand me my lunch so to speak. Ok, the topic is Proviron and whether or not it's effective as an anti-e'. Now, there is little in the way of scientific research that proves it acts as an anti-aromatase or anything. My contention here, mainly from personal experience substantiated in part by Big Cat's profile on Proviron is that Proviron prevents estrogen formation, which is what leads to gyno. Proviron is a DHT and acts as an anti-aromatase. Here's what Big Cat has to say...

Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

When challenged he recently posted the following:

Big Cat recently posted the following in regards to his statements on Proviron:

"there is no proven effect of proviron on estrogen management. There is no evidence it acts as an anti-aromatase or anything. Ok, I won't deny it is of course, time has proven its efficacy. But its certainly a poor choice if estrogen blockage is your primary course of action. Proviron would be a good choice to slightly lower estrogen to within maintainable ranges, but for actually inhibiting aromatization I would think something like arimidex is more suited. "

So, my contention is still that Proviron is a DHT and acts as anti-aromatase so if you're erstrogen sensitive and gyno prone Proviron at 25-50mg's ed will reduce estrogen levels, which leads to gyno, while enhancing the potency of testosterone in the body. In order words you kill two birds with one stone - the ultimate anti-e. I have no scientific data to back this up. My challenge to you to find the evidence that invalidates my contention....play ball.....batter up...
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Posted by teekahty on 08-30-2003 12:38 AM:
I am not YJ and I am positive he can speak for him self , but . since this an open forum I will give my two cents ..... you have picked the winning side , I agree with you , as I am sure most will . and I know this from manuals and that I have read along with personal use . in 90% of my cycles My evidence to back my argument :"due its extremely high affinity for plasma binding proteins such as shbg , proviron may actually work better as a synergistic combo with most steroids displacing a higher percentage into a free unbound state. Athletes normally use this drug as an anti-estrogen . It is believed to act as an antiaromatose in the body, slowing the conversion of steroids into estrogen, a result somewhat comparable to Arimidex. In contrast to Nolvadex which only blocks the ability of estrogen to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues . Most athletes choose to take both Nolvadex and proviron at the same time during strongly estrogenic cycles, both drugs attacking estrogen from different angles". ..... why not pick something that you two disagree on and debate that or better yet . let it go ..... stay at Elite where you obviously feel more at home . and away from YJ if you discount his opinions so much ?

Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 01:54 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by teekahty
I am not YJ and I am positive he can speak for him self , but . since this an open forum I will give my two cents ..... you have picked the winning side , I agree with you , as I am sure most will . and I know this from manuals and that I have read along with personal use . in 90% of my cycles My evidence to back my argument :"due its extremely high affinity for plasma binding proteins such as shbg , proviron may actually work better as a synergistic combo with most steroids displacing a higher percentage into a free unbound state. Athletes normally use this drug as an anti-estrogen . It is believed to act as an antiaromatose in the body, slowing the conversion of steroids into estrogen, a result somewhat comparable to Arimidex. In contrast to Nolvadex which only blocks the ability of estrogen to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues . Most athletes choose to take both Nolvadex and proviron at the same time during strongly estrogenic cycles, both drugs attacking estrogen from different angles". ..... why not pick something that you two disagree on and debate that or better yet . let it go ..... stay at Elite where you obviously feel more at home . and away from YJ if you discount his opinions so much ?



It was meant to be a friendly debate but if my post has your panties in an uproar then delete it. Who's discounting his opinions anyway? He was the one who suggested this on the Nelson thread. I picked this topic since public opinion seems to be divided on this issue and there really is no concrete scientific evidence out there to substantiate either side. I was most interested in seeing his input on this especially since the use of Proviron as an anti-aromatase is a relaively new concept. If nothing else people here can gather a good deal on information on the subject and make more informed decisions when it comes to anti-e's.
quote:

Originally posted by INTIMID8OR3
I CONCUR !!



LOL...thanks for chiming in. Duly noted.
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Posted by Canuck4 on 08-30-2003 02:09 AM:
Wow, some very good points were brought up.
Myself, Im still kinda sceptical about proviron.
Id like to see YJ's view on this also.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 02:18 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by Canuck4
Wow, some very good points were brought up.
Myself, Im still kinda sceptical about proviron.
Id like to see YJ's view on this also.



Ok, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and take the other side since teekahty seems to think I picked the winning side.

Proviron does NOT share all of DHT's characteristics. There is no evidence that shows Proviron being effective as an anti-e. There is also no reference in the scientific literature demonstrating its binding affinity to the aromatase enzyme. It does bind to shbg but it releases more estrogen than testosterone. Simply by taking more test you will reduce the amount of shbg and increase your free test and save money at the same time.

For all the other anti-e's commonly recommended there is a ton of scientific evidence that they actually either block the production of estrogen or bind/block the estrogen receptors. For proviron there is NO evidence except people's personal experience and written opinions without actual references to the science. There is some anecdotal evidence out there that suggests it prevents estrogen build-up but nothing concrete. At least nolvadex has been clinically shown to reduce or totally eliminate gyno and it is cheaper.
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Posted by basskiller on 08-30-2003 10:15 AM:
How about we just discuss the topic and not direct it towards anyone.. IF YJ sees a post and wishes to debate it..HE will.

So you need not direct it towards him.. The other thread is not deleted.. We don't delete anything around here.. Just moved!

So sit back guys (everyone) and debate away and enjoy yourselves...... You may acrually learn something from each other.. Hell, Isn't that why we are all here anyways?

So let's not let a good topic such as this degrade into something we have to move.
Thanks gentlemen
bass
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Posted by pigmeat on 08-30-2003 10:48 AM:
I have never used proviron soley as an anti-e,but i do use it after stopping nolvadex to stop the possible rebound effect. I am sensitive to estrogen,so i not taking any chances and stick to things that have been proven to work.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 10:51 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by pigmeat
I have never used proviron soley as an anti-e,but i do use it after stopping nolvadex to stop the possible rebound effect. I am sensitive to estrogen,so i not taking any chances and stick to things that have been proven to work.



Thank you. Was that so hard? So, you use Proviron "after" you stop taking Nolva? Does this conintue into your post-cycle? You realize that taking proviron post-cycle can hinder recovery, right? It is mildly suppressive to the htpa. Any thoughts on that?
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Posted by pigmeat on 08-30-2003 10:52 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by pudgy
thats enough bro. live and let live. thanks for the loyalty but no drama is a beautiful thing

you are right Enough drama

Posted by pigmeat on 08-30-2003 10:55 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by Juice Authority
Thank you. Was that so hard? So, you use Proviron "after" you stop taking Nolva? Does this conintue into your post-cycle? You realize that taking proviron post-cycle can hinder recovery, right? It is mildly suppressive to the htpa. Any thoughts on that?

Small talked me into a proviron bridge one time and it seemed to workgood. As i said,i am sensitive to estrogen so i run nolva throughout pct,then run proviron at 25mg for another 2 weeks.since i have been doing this i no longer get gyno symptoms post pct.

Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 11:03 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by pigmeat
Small talked me into a proviron bridge one time and it seemed to workgood. As i said,i am sensitive to estrogen so i run nolva throughout pct,then run proviron at 25mg for another 2 weeks.since i have been doing this i no longer get gyno symptoms post pct.



Well, small is wrong. Actually he's dead wrong and that is probably some of the worst advice one can give. A Proviron bridge? Please explain how that works to reduce estrogen rebound after PCT. Once the AAS compound has cleared the body there is no estrogen rebound that takes place so after you're through with post-cycle therapy taking proviron is very counter-productive. I wonder if Small can produce any evidence whatsoever that validates this "proviron bridge". I'll bet $50,000 to your $1 says he can't.
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Posted by pigmeat on 08-30-2003 11:14 AM:
then why do some people ,including myself, get gyno post cycle. I have heard of people getting it months after a cycle is complete?All i know is ,i dont get puffy nipps anymore post cycle,since i have used this approach. Results are enough to make a believer out of me!
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 11:20 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by pigmeat
then why do some people ,including myself, get gyno post cycle. I have heard of people getting it months after a cycle is complete?All i know is ,i dont get puffy nipps anymore post cycle,since i have used this approach. Results are enough to make a believer out of me!



My original contention was that proviron does prevent estrogen build-up although I can't back that up with relevant scientific data. Then I decided to play Devil's advocate. In any case, let's say for arguement's sake it does reduce estrogen levels. While proviron "might" be preventing estrogen related side effects like gyno is it also suppressing your hpta, which hinders natural test rebound. There are much better things to take to reduce estrogen related sides post cycle. Nolva and Arimidex would be much better alternatives than proviron post-cycle.
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Posted by pigmeat on 08-30-2003 11:26 AM:
https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/show...=&threadid=9664 are you not suggesting the use of proviron post cycle here?
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Posted by pigmeat on 08-30-2003 11:36 AM:
another! https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/show...ge&pagenumber=3 as you can see,small billy bathgate and your buddy Big Cat say that it is not suppressive to htpa levels.
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Posted by stonecold54 on 08-30-2003 11:37 AM:
pigmeat: JA is taking a position for positions sake. he is not saying he believes one way or another. in a round about way he is trying to get people to throw evidence out for either postition so we can all make a more educated use of proviron. correct me if I am wrong JA
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Posted by pigmeat on 08-30-2003 11:43 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by stonecold54
pigmeat: JA is taking a position for positions sake. he is not saying he believes one way or another. in a round about way he is trying to get people to throw evidence out for either postition so we can all make a more educated use of proviron. correct me if I am wrong JA

that is all i am doing also. The only evidence i have either way is experience and what i have been told by the likes of Fonz, bigcat,small, B2,ect... Scientific evidence is not my catergory of specialty

Posted by basskiller on 08-30-2003 01:29 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by estanozolol
Not exactly true. Things that are against important people's interests have been deleted in the past. Not by bass though. I have the utmost respect for bass. This is just to say that things DO turn up missing.



That's the past.. Now I can't say that everything has been saved.. But chances are .. they have.. Things get moved to a forum out of the public eye.. for whatever reason.. Just like the Nelson thread. It went very bad and served no usefull purpose.
It hasn't been deleted.

Now we could be like other sites and just let shit fly.. It works for them. But I think it detracts from the quality of the board.
But when we do let things slide around here.. We all get a ton of "reported posts and PM's form members asking us to step into and releave an arguement Or just out and out ban a member..

So it's a double edge sword.. we can't have it both ways.. So we have chosen to try and conduct ourselves as adults as best we can.
Will tempers get heated? Will arguement happen?
Well of course they will, but most of the time people will settle down and get back to the issue at hand.. It's when it degrades into something further is when we must decide either to lock the thread and or move it to a secure location
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Posted by estanozolol on 08-30-2003 01:39 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by basskiller
That's the past.. .. Just like the Nelson thread. It went very bad and served no usefull purpose.



I feel that the thread I'm referring to still references the present tense. The thread served great purpose in warning potential consumers about a company that is struggling. But as I respect your opinion, I will agree to disagree. Sorry for getting off topic. Continue on about proviron. I was learning
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 02:22 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by pigmeat
https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/show...=&threadid=9664 are you not suggesting the use of proviron post cycle here?



First off, that was an excerpt from Fonz's D-bol bridge theory that I was sharing. Secondly, I've never done a d-bol bridge nor do I believe in its efficacy. I feel, based on the research I've done, that the d-bol bridge is just an extended cycle or a taper and suppressive to the hpta. I was relaying information on that thread.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 02:24 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by pigmeat
another! https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/show...ge&pagenumber=3 as you can see,small billy bathgate and your buddy Big Cat say that it is not suppressive to htpa levels.



Much has been learned and uncovered since then and even Big Cat has retracted his statements about proviron as I noted in my original post.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 02:28 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by stonecold54
pigmeat: JA is taking a position for positions sake. he is not saying he believes one way or another. in a round about way he is trying to get people to throw evidence out for either postition so we can all make a more educated use of proviron. correct me if I am wrong JA



You are absolutely right on the money. The whole intent of this thread was to spark an intelligent, "factual" discussion. It's really not about who's right and who's wrong since there is little scientific data available that support either side. What I can say with a certain degree of accuracy is that Proviron, if taken post-cycle, can be suppressive to hpta recovery.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 03:11 PM:
https://www.steroidtips.com/proviron.htm

Ahh, I found some more speculative information on proviron that might prove useful to this discussion...

Mesterolone (Proviron)

Proviron is a synthetic, orally effective androgen which does not have any anabolic characteristics. Proviron is used in school medicine to ease or cure disturbances eaused by a deficiency of male sex hormones. Many athletes, for this reason, often use Proviron at the end of a steroid treatment in order to increase the reduced testosterone production. This, however is not a good idea since Proviron has no effect on the body's own testosterone production but-as mentioned in the beginning-only reduces or completely eliminates the dysfunctions caused by the testosterone deficiency. These are in particular impotence which is mostly caused by an androgen deficiency that can occur after the discontinuance of steroids, and infertility which manifests itself in a reduced sperm count and a reduced sperm quality. Proviron is therefore taken during a steroid administration or after discontinuing the use of the steroids, to eliminate a possible impotency or a reduced sexual interest. This, however does not contribute to the maintainance of strength and muscle mass after the treatment. There are other better suited compounds for this (see HCG and Clomid). For this reason Proviron is unfortunately cunsidered by many to be a useless and unnecessary compound.

You should be aware that Proviron is also an estrogen antagonist which prevents the aromatization of steroids. Unlike the antiestrogen Nolvadex which only blocks the estrogen receptors (see Nolvadex) Proviron already prevents the aromatizing of steroids. Therefore gynecomastia and increased water retention are successfully blocked. Since Proviron strongly suppresses the forming of estrogens no rebound effect occurs after discontinuation of use of the compound as is the case with, for example, Nolvadex where an aromatization of the steroids is not prevented. One can say that Nolvadex cures the problem of aromatization at its root while Nolvadex simply cures the symptoms. For this reason male athletes should prefer Proviron to Nolvadex. With Proviron the athlete obtains more muscle hardness since the androgen level is increased and the estrogen concentration remains low. This, in particular, is noted positively during the preparation for a competition when used in combination with a diet. Female athletes who naturally have a higher estrogen level often supplement their steroid intake with Proviron resulting in an increased muscle hardness. In the past it was common for bodybuilders to take a daily dose of one 25 mg tablet over several weeks, sometimes even months, in order to appear hard all year round. This was especially important for athletes appearances at guest performances, seminars and photo sessions. Today Clenbuterol is usually taken over the entire year since possible virilization symptoms cannot occur which is not yet the case with Proviron. Since Proviron is very effective male athletes usually need only 50 mg/day which means that the athlete usually takes one 25 mg tablet in the morning and another 25 mg tablet in the evening. In some cases one 25 mg tablet per day is sufficient. When combining Proviron with Nolvadex (50 mg Proviron/day and 20 mg Nolvadex/day) this will lead to an almost complete suppression of estrogen.

The side effects of Proviron in men are low at a dosage of 2-3 tablets/day so that Proviron, taken for example in combination with a steroid cycle, can be used comparatively without risk over several weeks. Since Proviron is well-tolerated by the liver liver dysfunctions do not occur in the given dosages. For athletes who are used to acting under the motto "more is better" the intake of Proviron could have a paradoxical effect. The most common side effect of Proviron-or in this case, secondary symptom- is in part a distinct sexual overstimulation and in some cases continuous penis erection. Since this condition can be painful and lead to possible damages, a lower dosage or discontinuing the compound are the only sensible solutions. Female athletes should use Proviron with caution since possible androgenic side effects cannot be excluded. Women who want to give Proviron a try should not take more than one 25 mg tablet per day. Higher dosages and periods of intake of more than four weeks considerably increase the risk of virilization symptoms. Female athletes who have no difficulties with Proviron obtain good results with 25 mg Proviron/day and 20 mg Nolvadex/day and, in combination with a diet, report an accelerated fat breakdown and continuously harder muscles.
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Posted by pigmeat on 08-30-2003 04:07 PM:
i was going to post that read, but couldnt find it. Brings up some good points. It did state however that it does prevent the nolva rebound which gives lots of people fits post cycle. Thats why i run it the way i do. may not be the best scientific way , but it has kept me from growing tittiespost cycle
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 07:45 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by pigmeat
i was going to post that read, but couldnt find it. Brings up some good points. It did state however that it does prevent the nolva rebound which gives lots of people fits post cycle. Thats why i run it the way i do. may not be the best scientific way , but it has kept me from growing tittiespost cycle



Well, that's what's been speculated but it remains to be clinically proven. It's purely hypothetical at this point.
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Posted by superchicken on 08-30-2003 10:05 PM:
Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8 Related Articles, Links


The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 10:26 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by superchicken
Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8 Related Articles, Links


The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



That's nice. What about this one...

Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7. Related Articles, Links


The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).

Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.

Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 6431212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-30-2003 10:30 PM:
Arch Dermatol Res. 1981;270(3):333-40. Related Articles, Links


[Effects of long-term use of mesterolone on different urine metabolites in andrological patients (author's transl)]

[Article in German]

Schramm P, Benes P, Morsches B.

We studied whether long-term use of mesterolone (12 weeks and longer) changed the pattern of steroid metabolites in urine from male subjects. We noticed an increase in dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) levels from 211-4 +/- 130.5 ug/die to 9943.8 +/- 6564.7 ug/die in the urine of all subjects tested. This increase was significant. After mesterolone administration was discontinued, DHEA levels decreased to their initial value. DHEA levels showed the smallest increase in those subjects having high plasma FSH levels. Perhaps the delta 4 pathway of testosterone synthesis may be preferred in these three subjects. We suppose that mesterolone has a blocking effect on the delta 5 pathway of testosterone synthesis. DHEA from the DHEA-pool can be used for testosterone synthesis and mesterolone seems to block some enzymes in the synthetic pathway. We were not able to detect a decrease in plasma testosterone levels during mesterolone use because of technical problems. Moreover, our patients told us that they felt ill after discontinuing mesterolone use; it may be possible that there is a psychotropic DHEA-effect during mesterolone use.

PMID: 6455971 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Posted by superchicken on 08-31-2003 12:32 AM:
just wanted to point out that this study, which showed that proviron suppressed the hpta, used 300-450mg of proviron per day. thats a TON.

this may be out of context of the thread, but maybe the proviron is not suppressive at lower doses, because it binds all/mostly to shbg. but at higher doses, maybe all the shbg is already bound, and the the excess unbound prov can affect other things? just a thought.......

quote:

Originally posted by Juice Authority
That's nice. What about this one...

Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7. Related Articles, Links


The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).

Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.

Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 6431212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 12:45 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by superchicken
just wanted to point out that this study, which showed that proviron suppressed the hpta, used 300-450mg of proviron per day. thats a TON.

this may be out of context of the thread, but maybe the proviron is not suppressive at lower doses, because it binds all/mostly to shbg. but at higher doses, maybe all the shbg is already bound, and the the excess unbound prov can affect other things? just a thought.......



Agreed. Could be. Not really sure. I'm still looking for studies where the test subjects were given proviron only at lower dosages. My feeling is that it would still be slightly suppressive to both plasma and protein bound testosterone levels, which would indicate that it does in fact hinder recovery if taken post-cycle.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 01:42 AM:
What ever happened to YJ on this thread anyway? Where is he?
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Posted by Canuck4 on 08-31-2003 01:44 AM:
He probably didnt see it yet.
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Posted by flexer01 on 08-31-2003 01:48 AM:
yeh, he saw it. he was here last night......no comments though.
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Posted by pigmeat on 08-31-2003 01:51 AM:
.
good info!
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 10:29 AM:
***edited***
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Posted by basskiller on 08-31-2003 10:40 AM:
OK that's it.. either stay on track or don't post in this thread.. set aside the bullshit PLEASE>>> A copy of this will make it to the FAQ-Articles but only after I prune the hell out of it.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 11:01 AM:
Perfect! Here's the type of data I was looking for...that shows the effect of Proviron or lack there of on T-levels at lower dosges. One could conclude from this study that Proviron is only mildly suppressive to hpta recovery at lower dosages (25-50mg's ed). In other words, according to this study, Proviron, if taken post-cycle to prevent estrogen rebound should not hinder recovery!

Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6. Related Articles, Links


Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.

Szollosi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.

The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.

PMID: 689818 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Posted by pigmeat on 08-31-2003 11:18 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by Juice Authority
Perfect! Here's the type of data I was looking for...that shows the effect of Proviron or lack there of on T-levels at lower dosges. One could conclude from this study that Proviron is only mildly suppressive to hpta recovery at lower dosages (25-50mg's ed). In other words, according to this study, Proviron, if taken post-cycle to prevent estrogen rebound should not hinder recovery!

Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6. Related Articles, Links


Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.

Szollosi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.

The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.

PMID: 689818 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

That is one of the few studies you will find where there is not an ungodly amount used! Good to see you found something that supports my theory

Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 11:45 AM:
Posted by Nelson Montana in response to the study I just posted above:

As much as I'm not apt to take the conclusion of one study (or even two or three) as an all out absolute, this does coinside with what my experiences have suggested all along. Proviron is not very inhibitory, making it an excellent conduit from a cycle to going going natural.

Since it also works as an effective anti -e it has several advantages over all other post cycle drugs.


It does not lower FSH (like Clomid)


It does not lower IGF-1 (like nolvadex)


It is not site specific,(like nolva) removing estrogen throughout the body.


It lowers SHBG (which Clomid raises) thereby incresing testosterone.


It is side effect free in the recommended dosages. (i.e. vision disturbances, acne, etc)


It can not lower your e too much (lke A-dex)


SInce it is not an estrogen "blocker" it does not have the possible rebound effect of nolva.


It does not afect mood negitively like Clomid.


It gets you hard as a rock!


It gets you dick hard as a rock!


It really is the best and only logical drug choice.

I predict that within a year, there is going to be a tremendous shift in the post cycle therapy of most steroid users. When the word starts to spread that all they need (assuming cycles aren't totally stupid) is Proviron and some natural herbs and nutrients, everyone is going to wonder why anyone ever took Clomid or Nolvadex.

Okay, now you don't have to read the second chapter of Bottom Line Bodybuilding.
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Posted by pigmeat on 08-31-2003 11:57 AM:
i would like to see a study of using it soley post cycle as neilson stated. JA, why dont you be the human guinnea pig ,and let usknow how it works I hate clomid therapy,and am very interested in this.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 12:17 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by pigmeat
i would like to see a study of using it soley post cycle as neilson stated. JA, why dont you be the human guinnea pig ,and let usknow how it works I hate clomid therapy,and am very interested in this.



As Nelson's has been saying for a while, the fact that Proviron acts similarly to DHT automatically makes it an anti-e since DHT can not aromatize.

Also, there is a post-cycle formula that's out. It mostly consists of natural supplements but people are claiming excellent results. The formula is called "Post-Cycle" formula (Maca, Chrysin, Milk Thistle, Cndium, etc). Nelson can better explain the ingredients but apparently this concoction has been used successfully in place of clomid without any of the nasty side effects you get from clomid. I plan to take this along with Proviron and a low dose of Nolva and see how it goes.
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Posted by superchicken on 08-31-2003 12:41 PM:
only thing is, this study did not actually measure test levels, they concluded that since pregnancies resulted from it, and also since fructose content in ejaculate went to normal range after treatment, that mesterolone did not lower test. thats a guess not a fact. although, i must admit, thats more than likely the truth, but it is not fact. it could very well have lowered the test levels, yet still achived normal fructose and resulted in pregnancies.

quote:

Originally posted by Juice Authority


Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6. Related Articles, Links


Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.

Szollosi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.

The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.

PMID: 689818 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Posted by superchicken on 08-31-2003 12:54 PM:
also, for nelson to call proviron the best post cycle med i think is a bit preliminary. using proviron would be very similar to using a low dose of ldex. which will work, but personally, i doubt will work as good. he states that proviron wont lower you estrogen too much, well, first of all, that is dose relative. this means there is a dose of anastrozole which will lower estrogen the same amount as a dose of provrion. diff drugs are commonly used in diff doses, depending on the purpose they are being used.

anyway, the main goal of post cycle therapy is to keep estrogen from binding to the HPTA so that the body is tricked into thinking there is too little testosterone, so in response it will trigger more test to be produced. now if proviron does not lower estrogen as well as anastrozole, well, it wont work as well. i still feel clomid or nolvadex is best for PCT, since in adequete dose, it outright blocks the estrogen from binding to the hpta at all, and will do the best job of fooling the body into thinking there is not enough testosterone.

i have seen studies where anastrozole RAISED natural test levels to over 50% above baseline(and i cant recal which but i also saw clomid or tamoxifen did about the same increase to nat test as well). this is because it/they does a good job of lowering estrogen levels/keeping estro from binding to the hpta, and the body responds by making more lh, and in turn more test.

i have yet to see a study which shows proviron can RAISE nat test, and if so, that it can do it as well as anastrozole, clomid, or tamoxifen. id love to see one.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 12:54 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by superchicken
only thing is, this study did not actually measure test levels, they concluded that since pregnancies resulted from it, and also since fructose content in ejaculate went to normal range after treatment, that mesterolone did not lower test. thats a guess not a fact. although, i must admit, thats more than likely the truth, but it is not fact. it could very well have lowered the test levels, yet still achived normal fructose and resulted in pregnancies.



I see what you're saying and no they didn't actually measure T-levels but it is safe to conclude that Proviron had little to no effect on test levels especially since the test subjects had low initial fructose content in the ejaculate prior to the treatment.
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Posted by superchicken on 08-31-2003 12:57 PM:
yes i agree.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 12:59 PM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by superchicken
also, for nelson to call proviron the best post cycle med i think is a bit preliminary. using proviron would be very similar to using a low dose of ldex. which will work, but personally, i doubt will work as good. he states that proviron wont lower you estrogen too much, well, first of all, that is dose relative. this means there is a dose of anastrozole which will lower estrogen the same amount as a dose of provrion. diff drugs are commonly used in diff doses, depending on the purpose they are being used.

anyway, the main goal of post cycle therapy is to keep estrogen from binding to the HPTA so that the body is tricked into thinking there is too little testosterone, so in response it will trigger more test to be produced. now if proviron does not lower estrogen as well as anastrozole, well, it wont work as well. i still feel clomid or nolvadex is best for PCT, since in adequete dose, it outright blocks the estrogen from binding to the hpta at all, and will do the best job of fooling the body into thinking there is not enough testosterone.

i have seen studies where anastrozole RAISED natural test levels to over 50% above baseline(and i cant recal which but i also saw clomid or tamoxifen did about the same increase to nat test as well). this is because it/they does a good job of lowering estrogen levels/keeping estro from binding to the hpta, and the body responds by making more lh, and in turn more test.

i have yet to see a study which shows proviron can RAISE nat test, and if so, that it can do it as well as anastrozole, clomid, or tamoxifen. id love to see one. [/QU OTE]

There's always a trade-off. Where anastrozole has shown to raise baseline test levels post-cycle it has also conclusively been shown to skew one's lipid profile completely out of wack. Nolva, on the hand, improves lipid profiles.

My position is that Nolva, Proviron and this new post-cycle concoction consisting of natural ingredients might well very be the way to go. The main goal of post cycle therapy is to keep estrogen from binding to the HPTA and Nolva will accomplish that without further messing up your lipid profiles, which are screwed up to begin with from the cycle you finished.
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Posted by pigmeat on 08-31-2003 01:09 PM:
post up this concoction ! Very interesting!
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Posted by superchicken on 08-31-2003 01:11 PM:
yeah i think clomid or nolva are the most effective. sounds like a proviron nolva combo would work excellent and have little unwanted sides, i bet this becomes popular. it would prob have the most desirable effects and be very effective.

i dont actually advocate ldex for PCT, i was just using it to demonstrate how it is more powerful at reducing estrogen than proviron, and how that reducing estrogen is a good thing for PCT effectiveness, because it raises test levels, and thats what PCT is all about.

i bet proviron will hurt lipid profiles too though, if it indeed lowers estrogen. and again this is dose relative. at 25-50mg ed, it wont hurt them nearly as much as anastrozole at .5-1mg ed, but thats just a common dose, thats not a comparable dose when talking about lowering estorgen levels.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 01:11 PM:
I asked Nelson to chime in but he does't want this to turn into a flame war and neither do I. We'll see what he does.
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Posted by superchicken on 08-31-2003 01:12 PM:
you know, i bet exemestane would be a very good choice for PCT.....but we do need more studies on it. but its extremely effective at keeping estro from binding, yet wont hurt lipid profiles, and no rebound....hmmmm...
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 01:15 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by superchicken
yeah i think clomid or nolva are the most effective. sounds like a proviron nolva combo would work excellent and have little unwanted sides, i bet this becomes popular. it would prob have the most desirable effects and be very effective.

i dont actually advocate ldex for PCT, i was just using it to demonstrate how it is more powerful at reducing estrogen than proviron, and how that reducing estrogen is a good thing for PCT effectiveness, because it raises test levels, and thats what PCT is all about.

i bet proviron will hurt lipid profiles too though, if it indeed lowers estrogen. and again this is dose relative. at 25-50mg ed, it wont hurt them nearly as much as anastrozole at .5-1mg ed, but thats just a common dose, thats not a comparable dose when talking about lowering estorgen levels.



I'll also be taking this to help with the shewed lipid profile post-cycle...

Guggulsterones: 180mg/day
Policosanol: 40mg/day
Green Tea(45% ECGCG): 1g/day
Tocotreniols: 1g/day(A way more potent form of Vitamin E)
Garlic(Kyolic): 1g/day
(Novaldex: 20mg/day)
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Posted by teekahty on 08-31-2003 01:20 PM:
Nobody will flame Nelson bro. The thread is outstanding , ask him to join in ..
SC solid as always bro .. I thought you were losing it talking about anastrozole when your such a huge fan of exemestane i am starting to think my next post will be proviron , exemestane , and clomid , and I will continue to run Proviron , and nolva or ,exemestane and nolva and proviron when on .

Posted by superchicken on 08-31-2003 01:33 PM:
im thinking exemestane, nolva, and proviron would be an awesome PCT. exemestane is unmateched at keeping estro from binding, the nolva will take care of that last 3-5% of estro exem doesnt get, and it will help lipids, and the proviron, shoudl help improve hardness, and mood since your androgen levels are still somewhat elevated. oooooh i cant wait anyway lets not get off topic here. exemestane can be another thread later.
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Posted by superchicken on 08-31-2003 01:34 PM:
yeah tell nelson that anyone who flames, thier post will be deleted. this thread can help us all.
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Posted by teekahty on 08-31-2003 01:37 PM:
okay I just cleaned this whole damn thread , and I am going to re-title it ... I swear whoever flames in this thread next , if your name is not Basskiller or Geared up I will hunt you down and choke you out ! , this is a good thread read it ,learn from it, but do not put any petty bullshit posts in it

Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 01:45 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by superchicken
im thinking exemestane, nolva, and proviron would be an awesome PCT. exemestane is unmateched at keeping estro from binding, the nolva will take care of that last 3-5% of estro exem doesnt get, and it will help lipids, and the proviron, shoudl help improve hardness, and mood since your androgen levels are still somewhat elevated. oooooh i cant wait anyway lets not get off topic here. exemestane can be another thread later.



Well, unintentionally I think we've collectively come up with a post-cycle formula that might actually work. Let's recap..

To help with Lipid Profile:

Guggulsterones: 180mg/day
Policosanol: 40mg/day
Green Tea(45% ECGCG): 1g/day
Tocotreniols: 1g/day(A way more potent form of Vitamin E)
Garlic(Kyolic): 1g/day
(Novaldex: 20mg/day) - also to keep estrogen from binding to the HPTA

Provirion - 25-50mg's ED

- Acts like an anti-e since it's a DHT and doesn't aromatize
- To help keep estrogen levels in check
- To help erectile dysfunction
- It does not lower FSH (like Clomid)
- It does not lower IGF-1
- It is not site specific, removing estrogen throughout the body
- It lowers SHBG (which Clomid raises) thereby incresing testosterone
- It is side effect free in the recommended dosages. (i.e. vision disturbances, acne, etc) - unlike clomid
It can not lower your e too much (like A-dex does)
- since it is not an estrogen "blocker" it does not have the possible rebound effect of nolva.
- It does not afect mood negitively like Clomid.
- It gets you hard as a rock!
- It gets you dick hard as a rock!

Nelson's post cycle formula - (Maca, Chrysin, Milk Thistle, Cndium, etc).

- To help restore hpta
- Nelson - ?

exemestane - SC?
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Posted by teekahty on 08-31-2003 01:51 PM:
I know why on the exemestane . I am interested in nelson's PCT . This is impressive . I do not think I have seen a better PCT ever. we still need to discuss duration , and timing however!

Posted by pigmeat on 08-31-2003 02:04 PM:
hopefully we can get neilson in here to enlighten us on his pct formula!
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 02:17 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by pigmeat
hopefully we can get neilson in here to enlighten us on his pct formula!



I'll get him over here. Here's what's been said so far about his PCT formula:

- "Post-Cycle" also has milk thistle and r-ala and lecithin for you liver, plus maca and epimedium for libido and cndium for erectile function so there's lots of stuff beyond the estrogen managment you can use. It also has 15 mgs of zinc so you wont need ZMA. Too much zinc is worse than too little.

- Post-Cycle has stuff to lower e, boost libido, improve erectile strength, and detoxify the liver. Most of the ingredients are things a lot of members already use, but it's in one shot.

https://www.proteinfactory.com/in_news.shtml

- POST-CYCLE - An All-In-One formula that combines anti-estrogens with liver detoxifiers while boosting libido! The perfect supplement for anyone serious about packing on more muscle and losing fat, but it's a must for the hardcore bodybuilder. It's what you should be on, when you're "off."

https://www.proteinfactory.com/in_news.shtml

POST-CYCLE - We've succeeded where so many other supplement companies have failed! POST-CYCLE covers all the bases. Where else are you going to find an anti-estrogen along with liver protectants and detoxifiers along with ingredients to boost libido and improve erectile function! And on top of it all, POST-CYCLE increases Nitric Oixde so you get vicious pumps in the gym. You'd have to spend three times as much for just one or two of these ingredients, but with POST-CYCLE, you get it all, for less!

Again, we avoided some typical "window dressing" ingredients in favor of the most effective compounds available. When it came to anti-estrogens we passed on DIM and I3C because these compounds are mild estrogens which MAY inhibit further estrogens from attaching to receptors, OR, (and this is what they never tell you) they may have an estrogenic effect on their own! No way. We also passed on some of the new androstenetrione antiestrogens simply for the fact that no research has been conducted on them. There's no way of knowing if these compounds have a "rebound" effect, causing an increase in estrogen once you stop using it. That's why we went with Calcium D-Glucarate in combination with 5, 7-dihydroxyflavone and added the Bioperine to increase its absorption. This allows for the safe, proven removal of excess estrogens for a perfect hormonal balance.

And just as a kicker, we put in a powerful dose of MACA so you really feel a surge. Not to mention the mega-dose of our high potency Candium will give you stamina like you've never experienced before! POST-CYCLE should be a part of every serious bodybuilders supplement regime. Used in a stack with UNLEASHED and wow! This stuff kicks ass!
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 02:38 PM:
Here's some more info with a list of the ingredients and references:

https://www.proteinfactory.com/articles.htm

POST - CYCLE

A MUST For Those Who Indulge


As everyone knows, the use of anabolics carries certain health risks. And once you come off, the side effects are even worse. A suppressed HPTA. Elevated liver enzymes. Lowered libido. Increased estrogen. These things will not only compromise your health but they'll slow down recuperation. In the meantime, you'll lose precious muscle! Don't let it happen.

Now, you can protect yourself from many of these detrimental effects and restore your natural vital functions faster than ever before with new "POST - CYCLE."

POST-CYCLE is specifically designed with a unique combination of ingredients which provide multifaceted benefits for the anabolic user.

First, we've included not one, not two, but FIVE different ingredients to help guard, clean and detoxify the liver.

Milk Thistle:80%Silymarin 100mgs

N-Acetyl Cysteine: 50 mgs

Pirkoliv: (Ayurvedic herb) 100mgs

r-ALA: 10 mgs

Lecithin (containing Phosphatidyl Choline) 250mgs


The next step was to add Estrogen ELIMINATORS.

This is important. Anything that blocks the production of estrogen only works as long as you take the product. As soon as you stop, the estrogen comes back twofold! The key is to REMOVE excess estrones, and the only ingredients we've found to do that are here! But the dosages must be correct! Too much or too little can throw your hormonal balance way off. POST-CYCLE contains the following aromatase inhibitors:

Calcium D-Glucarate: 25 mgs, 5,7-dihydroxyflavone: 500 mgs Piperine:5mgs

In a case study using the blood work as the gauge, this combination of ingredients proved to lower estrodiol levels over 20%! (Blood tests don't lie)

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST...

One of the regrettable downfalls of steroid use is the havoc it plays on your libido. This can lead to a multitude of depressing and embarrassing episodes for a long time afterward. BUT NOT ANYMORE!

POST-CYCLE contains special exotic herbs that have a "Viagra-Like" effect. You'll never have to worry about your performance again! Even natural athletes can take advantage of the pro-sexual benefits of POST-CYCLE since every ingredient is designed to promote health and well being. (Note: When taken with "UNLEASHED" the effects are even more dramatic.)

One of the ingredients of POST CYCLE is a newly discovered compound called Cnidium Monnieri. (50mgs) This amazing substance increases NO (Nitric Oxide) just like Viagra does! Two capsules twenty minutes before "activity" and we guarantee you won't be "let down."


Also included in POST-CYCLE is 500mgs of high potency MACA, and 250 mgs of Epimedium to help kick start your sex drive. 15mgs of Zinc Aspartate (for both estrogen maintenance and testosterone production) as well as 250mgs of L-Arginine are also added to enhance Nitric Oxide production, supress estrogen and highten testosterone.

THE ONE AND ONLY!

We know once other supplement companies get a hold of this formula they're going to try their damnedest to copy it. But don't be fooled by wannabe imitators. Go with the world's first and most effective post-cycle supplement ever formulated.


POST-CYCLE -- It's What You Should Be On, When You're "Off."





References:

Journal of Steroid BiochemicalMolecular Biology, 1993, Vol. 46, No. 3

Demling, RH. Comparison of the Anabolic Effects and Complications of Human Growth Hormone and the Testosterone Analog, Oxandrolone, after Severe Burn Injury. Burns 1999: 25, 215.

Journal of Immunological Reviews, Thymic Aging and T Cell Regeneration, 1997

Schwartz E, et al. Estrogenic Antagonism of Metabolic Effects of Administered Growth Hormone, J Clin Endocrinol 1969; 29:1176

The Guide To Natural Medicines, Michael Murray ND, Bantam Books, 2002.

Study of Human Sexuality, University of California, 1986.

Charpenet G. et al. Stress-Induced Testicular Hyposensitivity to Gonadotropin in Rats. Role of the Pituitary Gland. Biol Reprod 1982; 27:616

Copinschi G, Van Cauter E. Effects of Aging on Modulation of Hormonal Secretions by Sleep and Circadian Rhythmicity. Horm Res 1995; 43:20


Research Int J Clin Pharmacol BioPharm, 1976, October; 14 (3)
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Posted by Governor on 08-31-2003 03:59 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by teekahty
I know why on the exemestane . I am interested in nelson's PCT . This is impressive . I do not think I have seen a better PCT ever. we still need to discuss duration , and timing however!



agreed, timing and duratinon needs to be discussed.


We should make another thread on aromasin, Possibly even in conjuction with this one.....


How is proviron with the lipids??? Any BP increase??
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Posted by Nelson Montana on 08-31-2003 05:49 PM:
Yo!

The think Juice covered the info pretty well since the promo literature pretty much explains it. When designing the formula I wanted to add avenasativacosides for the SHBG lowering effect, but it got to the point where you'd need to take 6 horse pills for one serving. So we put together a seperate "free T" formula which can be used by anyone and left Post-Cycle more for its intended purpose.

The whole thing stems from the concept that people tend to go overboard with anti-e's, which in itself causes a host of problems (increased LDL, loss of libido, and lesser gains). Also, a lot of people do not respond well to Clomid. The reason for this is thus far speculative but what's interesting is that it has a very varied effect. I some, it does the trick, while in others, it seems to INCREASE estrogenic side effects. This could be due to Clomid being a mild esrogen, but that's another topic in itself.

Also, I feel most anti-e's can be lowered or even avoided by taking the proper precautions during the cycle. Look at the guys from the 60's and early 70's. Nobody had gyno! And nobody used anti e's -- cause they werent around yet. (At least not as bodybuilding aids).

As previously mentioned, Proviron is an excellent anti -e -- even thogh it wasn't designed for that purpose, hence the lack of studies on it as an anti e.

PF.coms "Post-Cycle" would be enough (along with some "Unleashed" which wouldn't hurt) for most light/short cycles and a combination of low dose proviron along with it should be enough for most anyone except for the ultra gyno prone.

I do believe the early symptoms of
gyno should be something that you stay aware of and not ust indiscriminantly take anti e's. as a supposed safe guard. Using Clomid or Nolvadex (which are very similar) isn't really "playing it safe" as once thought. They're another drug with their own side effects. Planing your cycle the right way, keeping duration and dosages sane, avoiding the harshest compounds, and using the right supps along with Proviron is the safest, most effective method for staying healthy, recovering quickly and avoiding gyno.
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Posted by Small on 08-31-2003 06:57 PM:
Can someone please, explaine to me, if Proviron is anti-estrogen, why no doctor in a world prescribe it for that purpose?

Posted by Small on 08-31-2003 07:04 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by Juice Authority
Well, small is wrong. Actually he's dead wrong and that is probably some of the worst advice one can give. A Proviron bridge? Please explain how that works to reduce estrogen rebound after PCT. Once the AAS compound has cleared the body there is no estrogen rebound that takes place so after you're through with post-cycle therapy taking proviron is very counter-productive. I wonder if Small can produce any evidence whatsoever that validates this "proviron bridge". I'll bet $50,000 to your $1 says he can't.



I never recomended Proviron as "bridge", I don't belive in "bridge"
I recomended Proviron as part of post cycle threatment, and it has nothing to do with its suppose anti-estrogenic properties, BUT with its androgenic properties, to keep libido up and CNS from falling into depresion. And, because, as many studies show Proviron has none or very little effect on HPTA it would and DOES work very well right at the end of post cycle therapy.

Posted by Nelson Montana on 08-31-2003 07:26 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by Small
Can someone please, explaine to me, if Proviron is anti-estrogen, why no doctor in a world prescribe it for that purpose?






What would they prescribe it for? Nolva works as a site specific designed to combat tumors in the breast. Even clomid is pescribed as a fertility drug in women, not an anti e for me. Normally men don't need anti e's and isn't exactly at the top of the list of medical concerns.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 07:30 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by Small
I never recomended Proviron as "bridge", I don't belive in "bridge"
I recomended Proviron as part of post cycle threatment, and it has nothing to do with its suppose anti-estrogenic properties, BUT with its androgenic properties, to keep libido up and CNS from falling into depresion. And, because, as many studies show Proviron has none or very little effect on HPTA it would and DOES work very well right at the end of post cycle therapy.



Whoa, whoa, whoa...you came into this discussion late in the game. If you go back through the thread you'll notice I've pretty much proved my own statement wrong with the relevant studies I posted that clearly shows Proviron is not suppressive to the hpta.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 07:44 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by Governor
agreed, timing and duratinon needs to be discussed.


We should make another thread on aromasin, Possibly even in conjuction with this one.....


How is proviron with the lipids??? Any BP increase??



Proviron is a DHT and can increase the blood pressure.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 08-31-2003 09:54 PM:
Another thing to note about Proviron:

Proviron decreases the total water build-up of the body giving the appearance of muscle hardness. This is most likely due to its reduction in circulating estrogen or perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 09-01-2003 01:09 AM:
One more study before I call it a night courtsey of Lawnsaver:

Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.



Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL.




There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH.
Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged.



In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH.


Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
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Posted by pigmeat on 09-01-2003 10:33 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by Small
I never recomended Proviron as "bridge", I don't belive in "bridge"
I recomended Proviron as part of post cycle threatment, and it has nothing to do with its suppose anti-estrogenic properties, BUT with its androgenic properties, to keep libido up and CNS from falling into depresion. And, because, as many studies show Proviron has none or very little effect on HPTA it would and DOES work very well right at the end of post cycle therapy.

you mentioned in a d-bol bridge discussion that a proviron bridge woulb be a much better option! I dont run it as a bridge though, i run it as you instructed me to...throughout pct- and a couple weeks past! I agree bridge was the wrong choice of words to be used.

Posted by Small on 09-01-2003 11:02 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by Nelson Montana
What would they prescribe it for? Nolva works as a site specific designed to combat tumors in the breast. Even clomid is pescribed as a fertility drug in women, not an anti e for me. Normally men don't need anti e's and isn't exactly at the top of the list of medical concerns.



OK, let's put it this way..if Proviron was thought to be effective anti-estrogen how come no studies was done to see how effective it is and compare to other anti-estrogens.
Even Clomid which specifically used as feftility drug was studied for it's effectiveness as anti-estrogen and compared to Nolvadex.
I don't think that science is THAT ignorent!

Posted by Small on 09-01-2003 11:03 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by Juice Authority
Whoa, whoa, whoa...you came into this discussion late in the game. If you go back through the thread you'll notice I've pretty much proved my own statement wrong with the relevant studies I posted that clearly shows Proviron is not suppressive to the hpta.



Better late then never

Posted by spidey on 09-05-2003 12:40 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by Juice Authority
That's nice. What about this one...

Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7. Related Articles, Links


The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).

Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.

Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 6431212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

HOLY SHIT! 350 to 400 mg proviron a day??? No wonder it depressed test levels. ANY steroid at insane dosages like that will suppress the HPTA. At the normal dosages of 25 mg to 50 mg ed, HPTA suppression is generally not seen.
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Posted by blm9376 on 09-05-2003 12:57 PM:
quote:

Originally posted by Juice Authority
Proviron is a DHT



So then there is a concern for hair loss correct?

Posted by teekahty on 09-05-2003 04:55 PM:
Proviron is a huge(rumored ) hair loss offender , the key word of course is rumored , basically it is the same old song and dance if your predidposed you are going to get it.. YADA YADA YADA

I use it , I am old! LOL and I do not have a hair loss issue .

I am pretty , damn it

Posted by Impossible on 09-05-2003 09:03 PM:
This is the 'BEST DAMN THREAD' I have seen in a long time. I have been wondering when everyone would get interested in PCT and the fastest and safest HPTA recovery possible. I hope all this discussion will inspire everyone to think twice about their PCT and how they can make it better. I also hope that when everyone tries a new PCT they will post the results here so all can see and learn, I know I will. Good luck to all in this endevor!!!

Impossible

Posted by Nelson Montana on 09-05-2003 09:20 PM:
I've been working with people for some time now on the Proviron/ herbal PCT and the results couldn't be better. Also, on the Elite board, as reluctant as a lot of guys were, many are dropping the Clomid and getting good results with the herbs.

I make only two exceptions to this rule.

One: If you've been on a long, heavy cycle, HCG is a must PC in conjunction with the Proviron and herbs. But take the HCG in 100IU doses 5 times a day for a week to 10 days -- not the usual 5000IU's once a week for 3 weeks. With the smaller doses there's less of a chance of gyno. And by keeping the duration short, you don't over sensitize the Leydig sells, which makes future applications more effective. In general, HCG shouldn't be used more than 3 times a year.

And Two: If you're really sensitive to gyno and begin to develop a lump, keep some nolva on hand. But you'd be surprissed how rarely it's needed.

And of course, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound a cure. By avoiding the worst gyno offenders, you can help to avoid the problem.
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Posted by Juice Authority on 09-14-2003 01:37 PM:
Bump...
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Posted by drab4 on 09-14-2003 03:22 PM:
High SHBG is a positive thing post cycle. Deliberately trying to reduce SHBG levels is counter-productive to recovery.

Free, unbound steroid hormones are suppressive. Bound, inactive steroids hormones are not.

Post-cycle:
High SHBG = high total test, normal free test.
Low SHBG = low total test, nomal free test.

We should be aiming for our testes to produce as much total test as possble after a cycle.

Lowering SHBG may give the impression that you are fully recovered, but in general it's better to wait until you really ARE recovered..... i.e. your hormone levels are what they were before the cycle. And your SHBG levels are what they were before the cycle.

There are several meds which we can use to increase SHBG levels..... In fact we already use them in most cases.

Clomid and nolva are the two obvious ones. They both strongly increase SHBG levels. This is a good thing as we really need to recover from the low levels that were present during the cycle.

Posted by drab4 on 09-14-2003 03:34 PM:
The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men.

Adamopoulos DA, Vassilopoulos P, Kapolla N, Kontogeorgos L.

The effect of clomiphene citrate (CG) on sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) was studied in 10 oligozoospermic patients with varicocele and 6 normospermic men. Plasma SHBG, testosterone (T), oestradiol (E2), FSH, LH, Prolactin (Prl), thyroxine (T4) and 17-OH-progesterone (17-OH-P) were determined before and during medication. SHBG concentration rose from 38.1 +/- 18.3 to 54.3 +/- 16.0 nmol/l (P less than 0.01), while T and E2 showed significant increases from 31.2 +/- 10.8 nmol/l and 24.6 +/- 5.4 pg/ml to 52.0 +/- 3.6 and 43.3 +/- 14.9, respectively in the oligozoospermic patients, with similar rises noted in the normospermic men. FSH, LH and 17-OH-P were markedly elevated while on CC, but Prl and T4 remained unchanged. The findings of this study indicated the CC causes an increase of SHBG concentration, which is probably related to the rise of E2 concentration. This SHBG change, combined with the intrinsic oestrogenic activity of CC might be one of the factors responsible, through a decrease of free T and a T to E2 imbalance, for the lack of significant effect on parameters of seminal quality in so treated patients.

Posted by drab4 on 09-14-2003 03:36 PM:
As for proviron not being suppressive, yep I agree with the majority. I don't think any suppression would be significant, unless very high doses were used.

Posted by Nelson Montana on 09-15-2003 10:09 AM:
drab: I think you're a little confused. How can having more available endogenous testosterone be suppressive??? It would just supress itself!

And levels can never be as high as during a cycle since extra androgens lower SHBG so that point doesn't make sense either.

And if more T is bound, you're suggesting that will equate to more total T? Sorry. You're misunderstanding the mechanism of SHBG.

But you do bring up one point which inadvertantly reinforces what I've been saying all along. Clomid raises SHBG which in turn LOWERS availabe testosterone. This above all else may be the reason Clomid is such a libido killer for a lot of guys.
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Posted by drab4 on 09-15-2003 12:06 PM:
Hi mate.

quote:

How can having more available endogenous testosterone be suppressive??? It would just supress itself!


Agreed, that's what I said. Available - i.e. unbound test is suppressive. Test which is bound to SHBG is not available.

quote:

And levels can never be as high as during a cycle since extra androgens lower SHBG so that point doesn't make sense either.


I'm not sure what you're referring to here mate..... What was that in response to?

quote:

And if more T is bound, you're suggesting that will equate to more total T? Sorry. You're misunderstanding the mechanism of SHBG.


Here's the best explanation I can give bro:

Total test = Bound test + Free test.

Free test is suppressive.

Bound test is not suppressive.

p.s. We're talking about test bound to SHBG, which has none of the intrinsic properties of free unbound available test. The only way that bound test can exert any effect at all is by becoming unbound.

quote:

Clomid raises SHBG which in turn LOWERS availabe testosterone. This above all else may be the reason Clomid is such a libido killer for a lot of guys.


Yes I agree, the lowered available test can certainly impact on libido. Add to this the estrogenic effects of clomid on certain parts of the brain, and we can see why so many report these effects from clomid.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier. Bound test has no effects. Free test does.

Posted by Nelson Montana on 09-15-2003 12:41 PM:
drab: I'm still not sure we're on the same page.

Are you referring to free T while "on" or "off"? Once you're "off" the only free T would be endogenous, therfore non suppresive. As far as free T being suppressive while on, it's a moot point since any exogenous T will cause some supression. At any rate, the more free T , the better -- always. Bound test is essentially useless.


Incdentally, this was the imputus behind the supp "Unleashed" which I designed. Instead of concocting a bunch of chemicals that will attempt to act like exogenous T, the concept was to use natural substances that would lower SHBG and therefore raise Free T. So whether you're "on" or "off" you have more available testosteroe without suppression. It's pretty simple really and I'm sure a lot of companies will be copying the concept. But honestly, most supp companies are clueless as to how this stuff works.

Anyway, I think we're in agreement on everything except for the function of SHBG post cycle. I see no reason for SHBG to be elevated -- ever. It's the most overlooked aspect of anabolism.
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Posted by drab4 on 09-16-2003 12:37 PM:
Yep, I think we're mostly in agreement mate.

Have to disagree with one point though:
quote:

Once you're "off" the only free T would be endogenous, therfore non suppresive.


Free test is suppressive whether on or off cycle. The body really has no way of telling whether it's on or off. Free test shuts off test production - negative feedback.

This is necessary, otherwise natural endogenous test levels would be constantly rising! By detecting endogenous free test, the body is able to regulate it's own test production. Of course there are other hormonal factors involved too, but the basic regulatory system is one of negative feedback. If there is a lot of free test - whether endogenous or exogenous, it will be suppressive.

Your supplement sounds interesting BTW, I would consider using something like that myself...... But I wouldn't use it post cycle. I see no harm, and some advantages, to lowering SHBG when in a "normal" steady state, or even when on cycle. However, post cycle we should really be aiming for the highest total test production we can manage. This effectively means getting our SHBG level nice and high. This need not continue forever of course, once we are stabilsed then a supplement such as yours would become useful.

Posted by drab4 on 09-16-2003 12:55 PM:
I'm going a little off topic with this, but here are a couple of studies that I found quite interesting:




Effects of experimentally induced mild hyperthyroidism on growth hormone and insulin secretion and sex steroid levels in healthy young men.

Lovejoy JC, Smith SR, Bray GA, Veldhuis JD, Rood JC, Tulley R.

Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, LA 70808-4124, USA.

Although triiodothyronine (T3) exerts major regulatory actions in both animals and humans, most clinical studies of T3 administration have been relatively short-term. The present study examined the effects of more than 2 months (63 days) of low-dose T3 treatment on overnight pulsatile growth hormone (GH) secretion, short-term insulin secretion, and of sex steroid levels in seven healthy, lean men studied at an inpatient metabolic unit. At baseline, there were strong correlations between sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and several measures of GH production, including total GH production (r = .99), GH interburst interval (r = -.75), and GH mass (r = .82). SHBG was also inversely correlated with basal insulin secretion (r = -.74). There was a 42% increase in serum levels of total testosterone (18.5 +/- 1.3 to 26.3 +/- 1.8 nmol/L, P = .005) and a 150% increase in SHBG (18.0 +/- 2.2 to 44.9 +/- 7.0 nmol/L, P = .008) following T3 treatment. Estradiol and free testosterone levels were unchanged by treatment, although free testosterone decreased from 142.8 +/- 18.4 to 137.3 +/- 19.5 pmol/L. T3 treatment significantly reduced the GH interburst interval (P < .05) and produced slight increases in the measures of GH secretion. There were no statistically significant effects of T3 treatment on insulin secretion, although insulin peak amplitude, mass secreted per burst, and total production all decreased. We conclude that experimentally induced T3 excess in healthy men produces significant and sustained changes in sex hormone levels and GH secretion. Furthermore, there are strong associations between SHBG and both GH and insulin secretion independent of thyroid hormone excess that require additional study.




Synthesis and regulation of sex hormone-binding globulin in obesity.

Hautanen A.

Department of Clinical Chemistry, University of Helsinki, Finland. aarno.hautanen@sll.fimnet.fi

Sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) is a plasma glycoprotein with high binding affinity for testosterone and dihydrotestosterone and lower affinity for estradiol. SHBG is synthesized in the liver, and its plasma level is important in the regulation of plasma free and albumin-bound androgens and estrogens. Obesity and particularly excess visceral fat, known risk factors for cardiovascular and metabolic diseases, are associated with decreased testosterone levels in males and SHBG levels in both sexes. SHBG is usually positively correlated with high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and negatively correlated with triglyceride and insulin concentrations. A positive association between SHBG and various measures of insulin sensitivity has been demonstrated in both sexes, suggesting that decreased SHBG levels may be one of the components of the metabolic syndrome. We have examined pituitary-adrenocortical function, glucose tolerance, and lipoprotein and hormone levels in a large cohort of Finnish males. Abdominal obesity appears to be associated with slight hypocortisolemia and increased sensitivity to exogenous adrenocorticotropin stimulation, which may contribute to the hyperinsulinemia and related metabolic changes including decreased SHBG levels in males.





As we can see, SHBG levels seem to be strongly correlated with total test levels. High SHBG means high total test.

The effects of high SHBG on free test are minor. This makes sense because, as we have discussed, the body can only sense free test. However, we can see that with higher SHBG levels, there is a slight decrease in free available test. So during an extended "off" period, high SHBG will not necessarily be desirable. This is where a supplement such as discussed above might come in useful (or on cycle).

In addition high SHBG seems to increase GH production and also increase insulin sensitivity, a pleasant combination!

Posted by Nelson Montana on 09-16-2003 04:31 PM:
I still think you're missing a basic tenet here. SHBG is higher when total T is higher, but raising SHBG will not raise total T. That's the crux of the whole thing. And the fact that higher SHBG increases insulin sensitivity just means you're more prone to hold fat when SHBG is high.
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Posted by drab4 on 09-17-2003 11:23 AM:
quote:

SHBG is higher when total T is higher, but raising SHBG will not raise total T. That's the crux of the whole thing.


I still have to disagree mate, though I'll try not to cover too much old ground.

We've already agreed that free test is the important factor in determining feedback.

Thyroid hormones raise blood levels of SHBG by acting directly on the liver. This is well documented, I'll post some abstracts in a minute for reference.

As discussed previously, raising SHBG means there is less free test. So negative feedback is reduced. In response to this, more test is produced. So free test rises to approximate it's previous level.

Knowing this, I felt the first study helped show the mechanism by which total test was raised..... Higher levels of binding proteins.

quote:

And the fact that higher SHBG increases insulin sensitivity just means you're more prone to hold fat when SHBG is high.


Not necessarily mate. Higher insulin sensitivity generally means that you will produce less insulin. This would be likely to lead to lower bodyfat. Lean people are insulin sensitive. Obese people are insulin insensitive. Type 2 diabetics are of course highly insulin insensitive - and they often have low levels of SHBG.

Posted by drab4 on 09-17-2003 11:29 AM:
Stimulation of sex hormone-binding globulin mRNA and attenuation of corticosteroid-binding globulin mRNA by triiodothyronine in human hepatoma cells.

Barlow JW, Crowe TC, Cowen NL, Raggatt LE, Topliss DJ, Blok RB, Stockigt JR.

Ewen Downie Metabolic Unit, Alfred Hospital, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

We examined the time course and dose response of the triiodothyronine (T3) effect on mRNAs for sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and corticosteroid-binding globulin (CBG) in cells of the human hepatoma line HepG2. After 7 h of exposure to a saturating dose of T3, SHBG mRNA was unchanged but increased to 1.5 +/- 0.1 times the unstimulated control at 22 h. Maximal stimulation (2.3 +/- 0.6) was observed at 2-3 days. Corticosteroid-binding globulin mRNA was unchanged for 22 h after exposure to T3 but diminished thereafter to 64% by day 3. At 3-4 days of exposure, the changes in both SHBG mRNA and CBG mRNA were dose-responsive to the T3 concentration. For both mRNAs, half-maximal response occurred between 10 and 20 pmol/l bioavailable T3. Cortisol-binding proteins secreted by HepG2 cells after 3 days in culture also were T3 dose-responsive. No re-uptake of secreted CBG by the cells was observed, suggesting that the T3 effect on CBG secretion occurs during production of the mature protein. These data suggest that T3 stimulates the expression of the SHBG gene and attenuates the expression of the CBG gene. The effects of T3 on these genes are consistent with the increase in circulating SHBG and decrease in circulating CBG observed in hyperthyroidism. The HepG2 cells may be a useful human cell line in which to study the diversity of the molecular mechanisms of T3 action.




Regulation of production and secretion of sex hormone-binding globulin in HepG2 cell cultures by hormones and growth factors.

Loukovaara M, Carson M, Adlercreutz H.

Department of Clinical Chemistry, University of Helsinki, Meilahti Hospital, Finland.

Regulation of the production and secretion of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) was investigated in HepG2 cell cultures by measuring SHBG protein concentrations intra- and extracellularly and studying changes in SHBG messenger ribonucleic acid levels. Insulin (10 nmol/L), insulin-like growth factor-I (15 nmol/L), and epidermal growth factor (20 nmol/L) decreased SHBG levels in parallel both intra- and extracellularly. Ten nmol/L 17 beta-estradiol, 10 nmol/L testosterone, and 100 nmol/L to 1 mumol/L cortisol increased SHBG levels inside the cells, but did not increase its release into the culture medium. Two hundred and fifty to 500 nmol/L 17 beta-estradiol and 500 nmol/L to 1 mumol/L testosterone increased SHBG levels intra- and extracelularly, but relative to control values, the increase was considerably greater inside the cells. T3 (10 nmol/L) increased SHBG levels, but unlike the effect seen with steroids, the increase was equally evident within the cells and the medium. Northern hybridization showed that insulin decreased and 17 beta-estradiol and T3 increased SHBG messenger ribonucleic acid levels marginally. The variable secretion of SHBG is hypothesized to be due to the different effects of hormones and growth factors on either the glycan moiety of SHBG or the expression of the alternatively spliced transcripts of the SHBG gene.

Posted by Douro on 10-01-2003 09:59 AM:
great post!
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Posted by estanozolol on 11-04-2003 10:52 PM:
bumping a quality thread
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Posted by pigmeat on 12-08-2003 08:12 PM:
Bump! This is an old thread, but one of the most informative ones in the archives. Lots of new members that havent seen.
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Posted by 3Vandoo on 01-03-2004 03:45 AM:
wow, long time I didnt see something like that here
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