TweetAre you limp yet, lol?

TweetI can see that you want to bulk up in the beginning then cut down at the end of the cycle.

Seems a bit odd....
Can you explain the reasoning behind running deca @ 300 for 10 weeks, while running Test E for 16 weeks @500?


Also, I noticed on this board a lot of people run multiple HGC @500 during the cycle? Is there any science behind this?



Thanks

TweetYou better get some hcg, and I would run the fina up 2 wks after enan and then start pct.

Good progress so far bro!

TweetHere is the reasoning behind running HCG during a cycle and not after which i adhere to. This post i found on another site and it pretty well summs it up.

Using HCG
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of Muscle Talk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).

Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.

HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus estrogen due to aromatization, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.

The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in estrogen levels via aromatization of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.

From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:

1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.

Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500 IU and 1000IU per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing estrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500 IU and 5000 IU (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.





__________________

Tweet

Originally Posted by dirtyluke1

Heres my week 5 update up 15lbs up to 195lb now thats pretty damn good, yes i know its probably some water from the d-bol but hey 15lb in 5 weeks i am not complaining fuk 11 more too go, this is my 3rd cycle it looks like this
weeks 1-16 500mg/enathate/week
weeks1-10 300mg/deca/week
weeks 10-15 75mg/fina e/o/d
weeks1-5 30mg/d-bol/day

pct hcg weeks 12-16 500i.u. twice/week
weeks 19-22 clomid 100mg 1st day 50mg/day following
weeks 19-22 nolva 20mg/day

I would run the HCG during the cycle the whole way thru at 500IU once a week and i would pick up some proviron to run at 25mg a day to combat estrogen related sides and the dreaded deca dick.

TweetSo, to summarize ---- some kid on the other board posted a message and you are following it like a bible????

Do you even realize the consequences of using HCG this way????

Well - it's your health - I've done my part of warning you about the danger of it.


For the others --- PLEASE, DO SOME EXPERT RESEARCH and then make decisions. Otherwise, you will cause an irreparable harm to your body.

TweetJay Abbays

You seem to think yourself very knowledgeable in the administration of HCG.
I have done HCG both ways and it works better for me the whole way thru and it is much less of a shock to the body administered in this way.
I am curious as to your base of knowledge.
Every Mod i have ever questioned about hcg usage has said it is best to use during a heavy cycle not after. I can post links all day to others that agree with my point of view (must be alot of kids out there that are uninformed maybe you should enlighten us all.
Just because i am new here doesnt mean i am new to the game.

Do you flame everyone that does not do things as you do?
I think maybe your the one who needs to do some more research.

TweetFound this on this very site damn uninformed kids are everywhere arent they? An uninformed MD no less you had better go set him straight.

PCT by SWALE

Here is an interesting article from Musclechemistry on PCT by SWALE (he is an MD)

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM''s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't fool the bodyit is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don't want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
__________________
MNUNZIO@HUSHMAIL
ADMIN@FITNESSGEARED

https://groups.msn.com/SharpCurves




ADVERTISERS
RESEARCHKITS
INNOVATIVE-SOLUTIONZ
WHOLESALE HAIR PRODUCTS
RESEARCH LAB SUPPLY
CUSTOMNUTRITIONWAREHOUSE
POWERNUTRITION
ALLTHEWHEY
https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/image...er_offline.gif https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/image...reputation.gif https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/image...ons/report.gif https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/image...tons/quote.gif https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/image...quickreply.gif https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/image...t_bottom_l.gifhttps://fitnessgeared.com/forum/image...t_bottom_r.gif
FUZOView Public ProfileSend a private message to FUZOSend email to FUZOVisit FUZO's homepage!Find More Posts by FUZOAdd FUZO to Your Buddy List

https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/image.../cat_top_l.gifhttps://fitnessgeared.com/forum/image.../cat_top_r.gif

TweetJay_Abbays: So how do you think the HCG should be run? If you are suggesting the 500IU be run once a wk, this will do little to improve atrophy. When i was running hcg for HRT due to low test in the blood, my endrocronologist had me running it at 2000IU three times a wk for three months! BTW, this therapy is taken straight from medical book, as he showed me. Most aas users take at least 500iu twice @wk. To me it would be better to run a good anti-e ie. (ldex or aroma) with some proviron and save the hcg till after the cycle, and run it at least 1000IU three times a wk followed by clomid or nolva.

TweetSo is it better to run HCG 500mg e4days or 250 e2days...cause Swale was say little more often was better...I guess it just depends on if you like pokes or not?

Tweet

Originally Posted by Jay_Abbays

So, to summarize ---- some kid on the other board posted a message and you are following it like a bible????

Do you even realize the consequences of using HCG this way????

Well - it's your health - I've done my part of warning you about the danger of it.


For the others --- PLEASE, DO SOME EXPERT RESEARCH and then make decisions. Otherwise, you will cause an irreparable harm to your body.

I would enjoy arguing with you(debating) over HCG use. There are so many reports/articles/studies, etc...And to where people have used HCG while on AS. Not saying that HCG could be used after cycle, but don't go around saying that it's not a good thing

If you don't have concrete evidence, then don't say anything !

Tweet

Originally Posted by mick-G

Jay_Abbays: So how do you think the HCG should be run? If you are suggesting the 500IU be run once a wk, this will do little to improve atrophy. When i was running hcg for HRT due to low test in the blood, my endrocronologist had me running it at 2000IU three times a wk for three months! BTW, this therapy is taken straight from medical book, as he showed me. Most aas users take at least 500iu twice @wk. To me it would be better to run a good anti-e ie. (ldex or aroma) with some proviron and save the hcg till after the cycle, and run it at least 1000IU three times a wk followed by clomid or nolva.

I can't wait for his response on this one here; leave it alone.

Anyone can run HCG @ 250ius E4D with great results, for the average AS user. More HCG could/would be smarter for those doing long cycles.

Tweet

Originally Posted by Jay_Abbays

So, to summarize ---- some kid on the other board posted a message and you are following it like a bible????

Do you even realize the consequences of using HCG this way????

Well - it's your health - I've done my part of warning you about the danger of it.


For the others --- PLEASE, DO SOME EXPERT RESEARCH and then make decisions. Otherwise, you will cause an irreparable harm to your body.

One last thing;

DON'T FLAME MY MEMBERS EITHER.