Liquidex vs. Nolvadex (the questions continue...)

[dejansen]

TweetOK, so Clomid is for post cycle therapy and Nolvadex is used in case gyno symptoms appear. Now if I wanted something on hand to handle excessive bloat, should I have some Liquidex or use the Nolvadex?

Based on all the threads I've gone through, there seems to be lots of conflicting information. Some say Nolvadex and Liquidex are very similiar and both would help with bloat. Some say if you're using Nolvadex during a cycle, there's no need to use Liquidex. Some say Liquidex and Nolvadex aren't interchangeable. I'm not sure who to believe...

Some use Nolvadex throughout their cycle to prevent gyno. If Nolvadex also eases bloat, I guess that would kill two birds with one stone. Is there any advantage of using Liquidex over Nolvadex?

[EQLgearstud]

Tweeti'm using ldex now and i have no complaints...

[LOCO]

Tweetldex=arimidex


Arimidex seems to have somewhat become the holy grail of anti-estrogens. Due to its limited availability, high price and extreme effectiveness, its become a much desired product on the black market. The compound anastrozole is indeed a revolution in the treatment of breast cancers. It's a new generation of aromatase blocker. Up until recently the main product for this purpose was the androgenic steroid Mesterolone (Proviron). But the problem here was that Proviron was not particularly strong and in the required doses of 50 to 100 mg per day, androgenic side-effects were not uncommon. Proviron is after all a DHT derivative. It could also never be used longer than the cycle lasted, because to some extent (despite readily being deactivated) it was suppressive of natural testosterone production. Anastrozole seems to do the job more efficiently. In clinical trials a single tab daily proved to have a profound effect. In steroid circles, mostly due to the high cost, experimentation with half and quarter tabs proved it to be almost unbelievably strong. So much, that really half a tab per day suffices for most users.
Anastrozole operates by blocking the aromatase enzyme, the primary enzyme for the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. A steroid that is altered by this enzyme is referred to as an aromatizing steroid, and such steroids can cause estrogen build-up. This has several potential side-effects such as water retention, fat gain and lets not forget gynocomastia (the growth of breast tissue in men). To prevent such effects anti-aromatase products can be used. Often times during a cycle most will want to allow for some estrogen, since it heavily promotes strength and gains as well (increases GH, upgrades the androgen receptor, improves glucose utilization). These people will generally opt for an estrogen receptor antagonist such as Nolvadex (tamoxifen) or Clomid (Clomiphene). These products do not stop the formation of estrogen, but stop the estrogen from exerting its effects by competitively taking up the receptors for this hormone. This allows them to stop any problems dead in their tracks, acting very fast, but upon discontinuation allowing for immediate influx of estrogen again as well. This has the benefit that they can be used as soon as problems arise, and discontinued when they subside, thereby only reducing estrogen-mediated gains for the time-span of the occurring problem (mostly gyno). Aromatase blockers like arimidex and proviron on the other hand are more useful for those seeking to eliminate estrogen from a cycle of aromatizable steroids all together. People who are willing to settle for slower gains, in an attempt to stay lean throughout, or for those who are truly sensitive to estrogen and do not want to take the risk of problems occurring. And arimidex is the clear weapon of choice here, at least to those who can afford it.
Things one needs to note while using arimidex is that the benefits of estrogen become non-existent as well. First of all that means gains can be drastically reduced. They will be leaner and more qualitative, but they will nonetheless be seriously reduced. A second problem is that estrogen seems to have a positive effect on cholesterol levels. Since estrogen is reduced, the use of arimidex may have a profound impact on HDL to LDL ratio's in your cholesterol profile. In this aspect the use of Nolvadex is more user-friendly, because despite its anti-estrogenic effects in most tissues, it seems to exert positive estrogenic effects in the liver and promote a better cholesterol profile.
Lastly, the major problem with arimidex is the cost. I've seen people who were willing to fork over 250 dollars for a 28 tablet box of legit arimidex. That's the price of fame. Of course these prices are rididculous, but most people don't really know where to look. I've found the generic anastrozole tabs for as low as 2.2 dollars per tab, which is less than half the average street price. So it all comes down to shopping around a bit. Its not that anastrozole is that expensive to make, just that its patented. Which means that besides legit arimidex, all versions in existence are generics. This also means they could be slightly off on content or impure, if trustworthy at all. So be sure to check this with someone who has tried them or had them tested before buying a generic. The liquidex sells legit for not that much more, Around 3 to 4 bucks per gram and is generally a good buy as well, although content may be off. Since few will be investing in this to mess around with low doses and will generally opt to take 1 mg a day (1/4 cc), this shouldn't be a problem. The anastrozole powder is a real buy at merely 2-3 dollars per mg, but obviously no one will ship that for less than 100 mg orders.
Stacking and Use:
As mentioned, arimidex is an ancillary that is supposed to be stacked with aromatizing steroids in order to stop all formation of estrogen. Its seemingly very potent, so doses of 0.5 to 1 mg are enough. Some claim that 0.25 mg is enough, but for anyone doing any sort of serious cycle, I would not advise less than 0.5. These steroids are, without exception testosterone, nandrolone, norethandrolone, boldenone and methandrostenolone. And all of their derivatives as well. The drug oxymetholone (anadrol) has estrogenic effects as well, but they seem to be the result of oxymetholone's acidic A-ring activating the estrogen receptor by itself, rather than by conversion to estrogen. So Nolvadex would be more advisable in that case. To understand the whole story, I refer you to my profile on Anadrol.
Although it does block gains, aromatase blockers are generally used for the extent or a certain duration on a cycle, whereas receptor antagonists are used mostly to solve problems. Because it takes some time for an aromatase blocker to take effect (even when aromatase is blocked, there is still a level of circulating estrogen) and again some time to bring estrogen back upon discontinuation (new estrogen needs to be made again), acute problems are best solved with Nolvadex or clomid. When an aromatase blocker is used, Arimidex is the best choice by far. Proviron may be more apt when using with testosterone, due to its other characteristics and positive benefits on testosterone, but for all other intents and purpose arimidex should be preferred in these instances.

[prolangtum]

TweetNolvadex will prevent aromtizing estrogen to bind to the recptor, used mainly to prevent gyno, but will cut little if any bloat off. Arimidex=Liquidex, will prevent most of the aromatization, but should be used sparingly. I suggest anywhere from .25mg eod, to .25mg ed. Less is more, you dont want to supress you estrogen levels past what they were pre cycle. Its hard on the cardiovascular system. I usually have nolva on hand, i dont take doses in excess of 1g of test, so I dont think its needed unless your in that neighborhood, at leats in my case. But then again, some people get gyno from touchign a bottle of test, each person is a different case.

[dejansen]

TweetThank you.

To summarize the two previous replies, Liquidex is harder on the body and is more likely to have a negative affect on gains. But Nolvadex will do little to ease bloat. And it seems that one would not recommend taking both at the same time. This is what I have gleaned. If this is correct, I guess most would rather put up with some bloat and use Nolva when it becomes necessary (gyno). Now I am left wondering what is the reasoning of those who prefer Liquidex over Nolva, and/or take Liquidex throughout a cycle even if no gyno symptoms are present?

EQLgearstud, do you use Liquidex throughout your cycle or only when gyno symptoms pop up? And why do you prefer Liquidex if it supposedly affects gains and screws up your cholesterol?

[intense]

Tweetits good to have both, use nolva when nothing else seems to work.
But L-dex does allow some estrogen to flow, does not promote ache, but yes I'm worried about the HDL also. Niacin supposed to help...

[EQLgearstud]

TweetWow! good post loco, learned a lot from that....

[CanadianJuicer]

TweetWow indeed. Loco, I'd have to second EQL on that post. Very impressive!

[Juice Authority]

Tweet

Originally posted by dejansen
OK, so Clomid is for post cycle therapy and Nolvadex is used in case gyno symptoms appear. Now if I wanted something on hand to handle excessive bloat, should I have some Liquidex or use the Nolvadex?

Based on all the threads I've gone through, there seems to be lots of conflicting information. Some say Nolvadex and Liquidex are very similiar and both would help with bloat. Some say if you're using Nolvadex during a cycle, there's no need to use Liquidex. Some say Liquidex and Nolvadex aren't interchangeable. I'm not sure who to believe...

Some use Nolvadex throughout their cycle to prevent gyno. If Nolvadex also eases bloat, I guess that would kill two birds with one stone. Is there any advantage of using Liquidex over Nolvadex?

Nova can also be used post-cycle. Some will argue that it actually works better than clomid to restore your T-levels. I use Nolva and Liquidex during a cycle; the Nolva to combat gyno and the Liquidex to keep down the bloat. I also use both of them post-cycle along with clomid and HCG. HCG first then clomid like the day after.

[dejansen]

Tweet

Originally posted by Juice Authority
Nova can also be used post-cycle. Some will argue that it actually works better than clomid to restore your T-levels. I use Nolva and Liquidex during a cycle; the Nolva to combat gyno and the Liquidex to keep down the bloat. I also use both of them post-cycle along with clomid and HCG. HCG first then clomid like the day after.

Two questions... Aren't you concerned that Liquidex will affect your gains as others claim? And what about the negative affect on your cholesterol?

[Juice Authority]

Tweet

Originally posted by dejansen
Two questions... Aren't you concerned that Liquidex will affect your gains as others claim? And what about the negative affect on your cholesterol?

I-dex will mess increase your level of cholesterol, no doubt about that but then again so does AS. Liquidex does not affect the gains you make. Where did you hear that?

[dejansen]

Tweet

Originally posted by Juice Authority
... Liquidex does not affect the gains you make. Where did you hear that?

Loco's post above.

[Juice Authority]

Tweet

Originally posted by dejansen
Loco's post above.

Interesting. That hasn't been my experiece but I'm definitely going to check this info out. I wouldn't think it would drastically reduce gains. It will reduce the bloating and water retention that comes from estrogen sides. Although to some these are desired on mass cycles, however once the cycle is over the bloat subsides and the water weight is lost anyways.

The point of Arimidex is to keep your gains leaner (less water and bloat during the cycle) therefore there wont be a drastic reduction in weight after your cycle ends.

[Juice Authority]

TweetI've never noticed any loss in gains with l-dex... and, according to HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex at EF it causes less edema, bloat and acne. Remember,it doesn't ELIMINATE estrogen, it's only SUPRESSING it from reaching superfluous levels.

[superchicken]

Tweeti swear this topic is so screwed up now, rumor rumors rumors and then people blow shit out of proportion and exagerate shit. they hear sothing then they repeat it and change the story a little bit, then then next person does the same......so much bad information on this topic now